Unforgivable! Plugwise stealing data !!!

Post by **Digit** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:28 pm

This is very UNwise, stupid, completely disrespectful and killing.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:34 pm

All we need now is a slashdot or a engadget post about this.. also posted a story on the "consumentbond" site, informing others of these actions.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Hetwieg** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 8:00 pm

Do anyone more know about the communication protocol between plugs and plugwice. maby it is possible a link to post in this text to start a new program.

Waarom zelf het wiel nog een keer uitvinden.

Post by **Reinder** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 9:52 pm

I am really sorry to say that I really don't understand anything about the over heated reactions. There is absolute nothing to worry about. First of all, the collected data is only for datamining, there is nothing personal about that. So what are you guys worrie about???? The only thing Plugwise would like to know is for example what is the energy consumption in the reality in the world, nothing more. There is now way they could relate it to a person, that should be illegal and forbidden. And Plugwise isn't doing that! So all the worries are not necessary.
@ bas234, the data is anonymous! You can check this, and when you do this, you don't see personal data! And yes, the anonymous data is important to Plugwise. It is the only way to keep the prices of the plugs as low as they are right now. It is a gamble for Plugwise investing in plugs below cost price (just for our customers) in the hope to earn some money back in giving the world statistic information to help the world save energy! Plugwise don't block update, it's just a simple technical solution that when the software cannot connect to the portal, it also cannot update. So Plugwise can't control your devices, just your software is not capable to update, I hope you understand it right now?
@ Henk, why post on a forum aggressive words like <i>war</i>....... You now how to find us, you asked before for free kits for testing, so why not contact us first? Of course you can manipulate the data, and when you feel happy doing this, please do. This will not help anything about this discussion.
@ wifi and @ snelvuur, what are your plans?????? When you want to kill Plugwise, please stop the afford, it will not work. Maybe you can reach that Plugwise don't sell in NL any more, but I doubt it because they follow the rules. And at the end, who is the winner???? I don't now? The bottom line is that it is not possible to sell the plugs for this price and earn some money, without extra ways like datamining!

There is only one reasonable discussion. Should it be possible to pay (lets say) 3 time more fore a plug, but then be sure that it is not part of the deal and that Plugwise is not needed to collect data? Be honest, you all now what happens. People buy the cheap plugs and block the data, so at the end, this solution will be hacked.
By the way, I know that Plugwise is working about disabling the data upload in a check box. And yes then you are in violation of the terms, but I still like they are offering this solution. Just like DJF3-2 suggested.

Post by **Noel** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:13 pm

If plugwise would have told me that they take my data (and who knows what they do with it) I would not have had any problems what so ever.
(note: Personally I would not have bought the product if I would have know this)

And please do not get me wrong. Plugwise is a great product, and works really well!
I also do not wat to "kill" Plugwise. All I want to do is educate my friends about things the Plugwise software is doing.
Just like I educate my friends to use Google for searching the web. Not to post e-mail addresses on internet. Trying to be as anonymous on the internet as possible. Use a virus scanner, firewall. And many more common things.

It's really up to them to take my advice or not.

--

Post by **Reinder** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:24 pm

I agree with you wifi. It should not be a surprise that anonymous data is collected. That's why Plugwise is working on that, first by making the terms more understandable and second at the moment of buying the product referring on that terms.
Besides this they are even creating a standard way in the software to disable the data upload with a simple check box you have to uncheck, just to prevent this discussion.
By the way, you can also discuss this check box, because exually the honest people pay then for the people who disable this, if you understand what I mean.

Post by **Radu** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:19 pm

Maybe I am a pessimist, but I really do not like to know that someone is aware that I switched everything off two days ago, so I am away, or that I use to switch everything off between 8 am end 7 pm. Data banks may be stolen and used.

Radu

RC

Post by **Reinder** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:39 am

But that is just the point. No one is aware of that. That is just exactly the difference between the discussion about the smart meter and global data. The data Plugwise gets is anonymous, data from the smart meter is personalised. Plugwise is against data from the personalised smart meter. When and why your devices are on or of is not noticed by Plugwise.
That and how much a refrigerator is consuming electricity is noticed but not from who ore where. Millions of data makes it possible to count the average electricity consumptions of a refrigerator, not individual cases.

Post by **Alexander** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:37 am

just name the plugs a random number within their software and tag them within homeseer as a logical name.

Post by **Digit** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:40 am

Let's first look at it from another perspective.
Why doesn't Plugwise put a big banner on their website with a text like "Beware, when you buy our product, we will collect and sell your data".
Why will that never happen? Ask yourself that question.

Another tough question. Doesn't it make you wonder why Plugwise is "attacked" as it is?
Lots and lots of products pass by on this forum, but i've never seen anything like this happen.
So who's to blame here? Just think about that one for a while; the answer shouldn't be that hard for an open mind.

My conclusion:
Plugwise left off with the wrong business model. Totally focused on making $$$ on the data, totally neglecting the wishes of their customers.
Now they are confronted with a bunch of people who know how to block the data traffic with a firewall.
Oops... so Plugwise changes the rules of the game, and things only get worse for the customers.

Wake up!

You've managed to create a great product that has worked flawlessly for 4 months now, but you can't deal with a firewall?
Come on, get real, you have to come up with some better excuse than that.

You were clever enough to create this magnificent business model of yours, now don't blame your customers if it backfires on you. Deal with it, in a mature way.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:07 am

I will only give a negative buying advice from now on. Just fix it, i said enough... either you get it or you dont.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **RDNZL** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:34 am

@Reinder.

Don't know if you read the whole story on this forum, but one of the first reasons Plugwise told us they use the data for, was for setting up a web portal run/build by a third party (PROBLEM #1) where people can see/manage their data.
If you offer this as a service, you have to have a link between the data and the person (PROBLEM #2), if the data is 'anonymous', they can't.

So what's going on then?
What they state now is untrue or just before the web portal product is presented they change the contractual terms and conditions again?

So I have my thoughts, period.

Regards,
Ron.

Post by **MindBender** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:12 pm

Did anybody report this case to the EFF (http://www.eff.org/) already?
They love this kind of stuff. They have discoverd that our printers identify themselves on anything we print: http://www.eff.org/issues/printers

Post by **Reinder** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 12:55 pm

Of course I have read the whole story. Lets face the facts:
1. the terms were clear from the start (see the first page of this post)
2. with the pricing of the plugs Plugwise needs to do something more to make a way of living.

If you don't like it and you don't like the (in between) sollution (checkbox in the software) ask Plugwise to deliver the plugs 3 times more expensive (100euro/plug?) with a software version without data sending? I'am sure you get your plugs and software.

@ RDNZL there is a checkbox (standard off!) where you can send your personal data to the portal. Only when you check that box, it will be possible to provide extra services like web portal. So standard that box is off.

At all, please wait for the new update (before the end of april) (or screenshots of the update, if you are anxious). There you will see Plugwise takes the comments seriously!