Best way to switch from Xanura to KNX/EIB?

[Post-IT]

Last weekend I had to spend several hours again to get things running smoothly again on my Homeseer system after a fire in my apartment building which caused erratic power behaviour and crashed the system after some drive issues for controllers that were not reachable. I've tried the Hometroller and HS2 software on a VM, but each time it stays unstable when all controllers, add-ons and plugins are installed. And even if I get it stable, it will probably give me a BoD or Homeseer error in a week or two. This frustration brings me back to when I used Windows for my desktop This is why I stopped using Wintendo in the first place.

So I've decided to investigate if I can switch from my brand new Xanura/Homeseer based system to KNX/EIB system without too much hassle, and start with Gira Homeserver for the visualisation. [Cheer for linux!]

Hopefully some of you can help me in my quest....
1) I've tried to find some documentation on KNX/EIB and Gira systems, but it's all so commercial and misses on the general hardware setup. Does anyone have a nice document in which is explained what setups are possible, and which hardware is needed?

2) I've found some documentation about Powerline based KNX/EIB and wireless Bus systems. Because I chose Xanura during the rewiring, I don't have space for extra bus cables or UTP so powerline or wireless seems the best way to go. Does anyone have any experience with powerline or wireless versions of KNX/EIB?

3) Any general advice for switching towards a more stable system is welcome

Thanks!

[Post-IT]

After a long night of internet browsing, I have made some progress in my quest...

Without rewiring the house my current options are Powernet EIB or Wireless. Wireless is almost never advice unless there is no other option. And it looks like each manufacturer has it's own wireless protocol for wireless KNX/EIB. So looking at the Powernet devices available, the hardware setup for Powernet EIB is different from regular KNX/EIB. It seems you don't have to work with separated "actuators" in the rooms and "switches" in the jumperbox (central), but with (decentral) Xanura like modules.

It looks like the Powernet EIB modules are faster then the Xanura modules due to multiple phase usage (130ms against Xanura's 830ms), but those numbers might be colored in the documentation I read.

My replacing components list so far:
Xanura PMIX35 > KNX/EIB - IP router
Xanura Sperfilter > Powernet EIB filter (cheaper)
Xanura Coupler > Powernet EIB coupler (way cheaper!)

So is there anyone with Powernet EIB experience?

[Bwired]

No advice from my side
I think it is saying enough that you can't find much information on the internet about it!
Did some investigation years ago , by the looks of your findings I think the whole system is still pretty closed up.

[Henk]

KNX is mainly (99%) a wired implementation - yes there are wireless devices - like a remote control / or switches communicating with a controller and this controller is mostly wired. As you mentioned the inter changeability between KNX/RF of different vendors is questionable ... the same applies of the powerline implementation ... a very limited number of vendors will provide this type of devices.

Based on your inputs I think your main problem is the stability of your home automation controller in this case Homeseer and yes it is known that the stability of Homeseer is not perfect.

The benefit of using Homeseer is the richness of functionality and the possibility by programming yourself to implement almost everything what you want ...
.. you may consider keeping X10 devices and selecting another controller with more stability and hopeful the functionality you wanted ....


Henk

[Digit]

Did you consider trying PLCBUS? Supported by Homeseer and Domotiga.

[TANE]

Or go for Zwave

[Post-IT]

Thanks for all the replies, here is some extra information on the Powerline issue

Some people might know the OSI layer model. For some of the supported KNX Media there are extra OSI layers through which the KNX datagrams are transported. Powerline is de media, the transport layer is probably according to the Powerline standard, such as with X10. Then the datalayer contains KNX datagrams.
The same for RF: The media is RF, but can use any transport layer as long as the datagrams contain the KNX standard. This could mean (I'm not sure yet) that ZigBee might be used to transport KNX datagrams in the future, as it's now being used to transport IR remote control commands for example.

For those that do not understand a different example:
We can deliver postal messages (KNX datagrams) in many ways, you can use the road, water or air (KNX equivalent for Powerline, RF or UTP). They (KNX) just did not tell use if we should use cardboard boxes in cars, or containers on large trucks to transport those messages. Trucks can be switched with trucks, and cars with cars... but containers do not fit in cars.

Because of this issue (you could call it a gap in the KNX design), it is up to the manufacturers to use the same transport method as other manufacturers, which is mostly not the case right now. So for now...all Powerline devices should be from the same manufacturer, the Powerline gateway will connect your Powerline network to the KNX bus.

[Post-IT]

After having explained the Powerline/RF issue...back to my quest.

Indeed Homeseer/Windows is the biggest problem in the stability of my system. Although Powerline X10 is still slow, and the hardware is not always reliable. Even worse... Xanura is EOL.

If I go for a KNX based system, my options so far are:
1) I could build my own X10>KNX gateway so I can leave my Xanura implementation in tact. Each Xanura device should be presented as a KNX device on the KNX bus.
- CER has a nice platform for this (FieldCommander). €400 for the box, €400 for the X10 module, €400 for the KNX module, and some programming hours.
- or I could develop a program which does an KNX/IP to Xanura datagram translation, and use the PMIX35 to translate KNX/IP and send X10 over the Xanura Powerline network.

2) I could refit the complete Xanura network with Powerline KNX/EIB components. The gateway alone is almost €700, and all the hours for the electrician to do the refitting might be expensive. Then there is the replacement of the phasecoupler and the linefilters for powerline EIB which is around €200 for a three phase system (cheaper then Xanura
One problem with Powerline EIB dimmers from ABB (only one I found so far) is, they have a max powerrating of 210VA (~200watt). Which in some cases would be problematic as I have some high power halogen lights in my office and livingroom.

IF I go for the Gira Homeserver for interaction and visualisation (or some other KNX system), I have to build a KNX bus. This means I have to buy some base components: A line coupler, programming interface and powersupply which will cost me around €750.

Some other integration trouble I have to think about:
- Integration with my Networx alarmsystem (RS232)
- Integration with RFXCOM (sensors, I/O dooropener, KaKu and Harrison interaction)

Looking at all the extra's being introduced in Gira's latest update (29-4-2010), this is still my preferred system. Domotiga is a nice alternative but if I have to develop the interfaces for my alarm and RFXCOM, I'd rather put that time in an interface for Gira Homeserver.

[Post-IT]

Gira Homeserver supports IP interaction with other devices. So that means I could try to interact with my alarm using telnet to my RS232 server instead of using the IP<->RS232 driver which control it as a local COM-port.

I'm not sure about my ethernet RFXCOM tranceiver, is it possible to do full interaction over IP without the CPD software?

For my other USB RFXCOM receiver I think it's not possible.

[Post-IT]

Again some updates...

Many Domotica professionals I spoke to the last few days are overly negative towards Xanura and say that is the origin of my stability problems. I personally don't have substantial issues with my Xanura network. Yes it's not perfect, the hardware fails at some point, but not substantially enough to be the cause of my problems. I will still focus on changing the server and visualisation part of my domotica setup.

Because the Xanura hardware was quite an investment and changing to Powerline EIB will be extra costly (€6000), I'm thinking about keeping the Xanura network, and use the CER FieldCommander to build a KNXnet/IP to A10/Xanura gateway. This way I can start building my KNXnetwork for the future and current visualisation, but keep my current Xanura hardware. This all depends on the quote I'll receive from CER this week, and the money return on my current Xanura components.

[Bastiaan]

I am a bit surprised about your quest. I have a house full of Xanura and apart from one switch failing in the first week, it runs for years without missing a single beat/pulse.
Homeseer is not very stable but there is also a lot of help out there when you want to find out what goes wrong. My system runs on W7 with an Atombox and SSD and if I don't start playing and testing new things, it also works very well and never stops.
IF you decide the move to Gira is too expensive I would indeed rebuild a small homeserver from scratch and see if you can eliminate your problems. Enough help here and on the homeseer board.
Thanks for sharing your quest

[Bwired]

Gira Homeserver supports IP interaction with other devices. So that means I could try to interact with my alarm using telnet to my RS232 server instead of using the IP<->RS232 driver which control it as a local COM-port.

I'm not sure about my ethernet RFXCOM tranceiver, is it possible to do full interaction over IP without the CPD software?

For my other USB RFXCOM receiver I think it's not possible.

I agree with Bastiaan, my Xanura setup works also like a charm. Common mistake is that most people start to install modules without checking and cleaning there powerline. This is something what also is clearly stated by Xanura. Homeseer can be stable if you are not experimenting to much on your production version and run it on a small seperate server/pc.

Gira is able to interact on IP, but are the specifications fully available to do this?
Is the Gira software as flexible as Homeseer or home brew application?
Those kind of systems are mostly pretty closed.

[Post-IT]

I agree with you guys, it's not the Xanura network which is the source of my unstable domotica, at least not for more then 5%. That's what I had to tell the professionals too. That's why I still look at the option to keep that part, and build a gateway.

It's the Homeseer/Windows combination which is unstable, I've even had a separate Hometroller (Homeseer custom hardware), and I'm now running on VMware with a clean an small Windows XP install. Unfortunately the combination of external components and drivers make the whole unstable.
- RS232<->USB and RS232<->IP for two RFXCOM devices
- RS232 over IP for alarm integration
- USB for Xanura PMIX35
- USB for touchscreens

BlueScreens are mostly for USB driver problems, next to my own MCSE experience I've looked at this with very experienced Mickeysoft friends. After spending many hours looking at the debug code, the system crashes due to the Xanura or USB-RFXcom device driver.
Next to that, the Homeseer application barfs when COMports (fixed or virtual) are not available. This can happen with the RS232 over IP connections for RFXCOM and for my alarm. CPU then hits 100% and HS keeps presenting debug screens, mostly results in hard resets. I've also spent many hours on this to try new and different settings. One day I logged in, and Homeseer was running the 7th copy of the recovered database!
I have 3 Mimo screens neatly integrated in my house, but because they use USB, I have not taken more then two tries to get them working properly. They are off for almost a year now.

When I was an computer engineer I loved this kind of debugging, but now I just want a working system without hours of debugging. I had to pick up a screwdriver just once after I quit using Windows, debugging just two or three times in the last 5 years. Now I've been using windows again... back to screwdrivers and debugging.

Gira is just one of the options I'm looking at, Domotiga is also one on my list. But if in the end I have to spend time or money on development to make the system complete, I'd rather spend that on the Gira system (no offense Ron, but I really like their interface and iPhone apps). I'm now busy to get the Gira Homeserver working in a VM (based on Roels how-to) to do some tests and see how it could integrate.

[Bastiaan]

Well there is some room for improvement:
Windows 7 has most of those USB drivers now standard or updated. I haven't seen my W7 boxes crash (and I have many.)
RFXCOM has a direct IP option without the drivers. My memory is getting rusty but Bert can jump in. It might need a firmware update but I got a few RFXCOM interfaces running without the 'old' drivers'

Only for my Zwave stick and for the PMIX35 I need those USB drivers. I got them working but sometimes after a restart they magically swap port numbers, even when they are set manually in the device control.
Still the updated versions from W7 are much better than the XP ones I had. They are exactly the reason I took the XP box out.
IF you take out the USB for RFXCOM, Touchscreens, yo are only left with the PMIX35 and your alarm over RS232 and that should work good enough.
Still I would use a dedicated box. There are too many people that tried running VM's and went back to a dedicated machine.

[Rene]

I am running HS on VMWare for about 3 years now, without any problem (not caused by a faulty plugin that is). I use XP and my CM11 (which seems to cause a lot of problems for other people also but not for me) is connected using usb over IP (Belkin). When the IP connection to the Belkin fails (as it does now and then) Homeseer does not recover the connection to the CM11. I created a scheduled (once every 5 minutes) check on the status of the CM11 plugin. When it indicates the connection is lost I restart Homeseer automatically just to recover the connection. Although I think Homeseer sucks bigtime, this setup is quite stable. I also did not experience any problems with Xanura modules. Any unstability issues caused by a dirty powerline will also render a KNX powerline based setup unstable.

So the conclusion is, we need a Homeseer alternative (preferably not running on Windows)