Solar Energy, anyone?

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Snelvuur
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Post by Snelvuur »

no your right, but i'am a bit sleepy today :) but 3500 Wp is not enough (just change my kwh with Wp's) hehe. nothing is for free, but if i do want to help the "nature" i want something in return since i allready do alot for it. I clean my garbage correctly, expose of the battery the correct way. Throw my glass in the correct bin. I even changed my car which does more miles to the gallon (and less polution from it) i've done more in that area then i can ever gain from solar power.

If tomorrow someone finds out how to run a car on water, which costs totally nothing. Nobody would ever drive it, because shell would just buy it up and put it in the closet like everyone else thats out for a provit.

If they changed the "refund" workings on this thing they might get more people for it, which leads to less polution. Your idea of why you want to have it is nice, but i reckon 95 of the 100 people would say "where's the money?"

Anyway off to lalaland, before i make too many giberish.

// Erik (binkey.nl)
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Post by Digit »

Well, i guess we're basically thinking the same. Batteries, separating garbage, using "spaarlampen" (the english just won't pop-up at his hour[:)]) all over the place, all those things.
But hey, in the end, we are all just going to be f****d anyway, one way or the other. I mean, who's gonna pay for all these CO2-related laws, regulations, taxes, etc? The big companies or "we"? You get one chance to guess right...
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Post by Lennart »

@snelvuur: subsidy turns out to be on every *generated* kWh, not only on the kWhs that you feed in. So you are allowed to (directly) use the kWhs that you generate, while still getting the subsidy for these. Thus, subsidy is 56 actually cents per kWh: 23 cents for using the kWh yourself (not having to buy it) and 33 cents subsidy from the gouvernment. Have a look at http://www.zonnepanelen.wouterlood.com/ ... nieuws.htm (newsitem March 9) for a calculation according to the latest facts. Note that current system prices can be as low as EUR 4,80 per Wp if one buys a 3,5 kWp system, which gives a break even point after 11 years. That's even better than for my system...

@Digit: you are right about the 3500 Wp; it was changed by parliament when they talked about the subsidy. It does have a relation with the 3000 kWh however: given a 850 kWh/kWp ratio, 3500 Wp will generate an annual 2975 kWh, which is a "neat" outcome given the 3000 kWh "salderings"-limit.

I guess we have to get to terms with the fact that for a sustainable future, using CFLs, collecting empty batteries and separating garbage is not going to be nearly enough. We are talking about going back to the standard of living we had in 1865. And limit the amount of children to max. 1 per couple, as having children is one of the most environmentally unsound things one might do... Ok, I'm probably exaggerating here :-), but I'm pretty sure that "we ain't seen nothing yet". And real change will probably not happen in a very friendly democratic way (democracy is good for maintaining the status quo, not for change - democracy is like having the turkey decide what we should put on the Christmas menu -> it will not go for the unpopular options). Real change comes from high level but nonetheless very real global initiatives on which we will have little or no influence, probably driven by the very real consequences of this all (extreme climates leading to large numbers of refugees, shortages of all kinds of resources, and so on). I expect the world to be very different in this regard in, let's say, 20 years from now (and if real change does not come, we'll all be f****d indeed.)

So, what's the use of my panels then, if we don't seem to make a difference anyway? Well, all small things help, and in my opinion everyone should do the things they feel are responsible in their eyes, if they'll be held accountable for them at sometime in the future. I'd just like to be able to say "it wasn't me" if future generations ask me why I didn't react when there was still time, hope, money and resources. Others currently worry about the color of their second car or the terribly looks of the windmills on the horizon.

Just my two cents...

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Post by Snelvuur »

Well ok if its also the generated kwh, i might be interested, but only if i know i will get subsidy.

// Erik (binkey.nl)
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Post by Snelvuur »

<b>Zonnepanelenloterij </b>
AMSTERDAM - De subsidiekraan gaat langzaam open voor de aanschaf van zonnepanelen. Duizenden consumenten hebben belangstelling. Het loopt storm bij installateurs en energiebedrijven, die in sommige gevallen nog niet eens een kant-en-klaar product in de aanbieding hebben.

Minister Van der Hoeven (Economische Zaken) besloot eind januari dat ze niet langer kon achterblijven bij de buurlanden en zegde toe een selecte groep consumenten een subsidie te geven van 33 eurocent voor elk kilowattuur die zij aan zonne-energie opwekken, of ze die nou zelf gebruiken, of aan het net leveren.

Hiermee wordt de tijd die het duurt om de hoge aanschafkosten (varirend van 3000 tot 18.000 euro naar gelang van de omvang van de panelen) terug te verdienen verkort van ruim dertig tot ongeveer vijftien jaar, enerzijds door de subsidie, anderzijds door de fors lagere energierekening. De levensduur van zonnepanelen ligt tussen de dertig en veertig jaar.

Hellingshoek

Een zonnepaneel levert in Nederland de hoogste opbrengst wanneer het een hellingshoek tussen 20 en 60 heeft en gericht staat op 5 ten westen van het zuiden (tenzij het een meedraaiend paneel betreft). Dit alles om het zonlicht er zo recht mogelijk in te laten vallen. Steile puntdaken zijn uitermate ongeschikt. Overigens hoeft u niet bang te zijn voor te veel bewolking: ook als het bewolkt is, werkt een zonnecel.

Het totale zonnepanelenbudget voor 2008 is 46 miljoen euro. Dit is voldoende voor honorering van ongeveer 7300 aanvragen. U kunt uw aanvraag vanaf 1 april indienen. Het heeft geen zin om vr 1 april aanvragen in te sturen, die worden niet in behandeling genomen.

Omdat de belangstelling overweldigend is, is het aan te raden ervoor te zorgen dat uw aanvraag daadwerkelijk op 1 april arriveert, hetzij per post, hetzij per e-mail, bij Senter Novem, een overheidsagentschap. Bij te veel aanvragen wordt er geloot.

Het aanvraagformulier is te vinden op de website van Senter Novem (www.senternovem.nl). Volgens de regeling zoals die nu geldt, hebt u geen recht op subsidie voor zonnepanelen die voor 1 april 2008 geplaatst zijn. Hebt u ze al wel gekocht, maar nog niet geplaatst? Dan bestaat de kans dat u de panelen alsnog vergoed krijgt, inschrijven voor de loterij dus!

Er bestaat nog enige onduidelijkheid over de terugleververgoeding. Om in aanmerking te komen moet de teruglevering gemeten worden. Hiervoor zijn kostbare meters verkrijgbaar. Op internet circuleert ook een handleiding die uitlegt hoe een goedkope oude Poolse elektriciteitsmeter simpel kan worden omgebouwd, maar het is de vraag of een dergelijk apparaat geoorloofd is.

Europese deskundigen voorspelden overigens herhaaldelijk dat zonnestroom in de nabije toekomst volledig kan concurreren met marktprijzen van conventionele elektriciteit, mede door de steeds geavanceerdere panelen. Dus als u geen zin hebt in al die heisa, kunt u ook eerst de kat uit de boom kijken. Het gaat hier namelijk om een proef, die bij voldoende belangstelling in 2009 een vervolg zal krijgen.

Om het vermogen van zonnepanelen te kunnen vergelijken wordt de meeteenheid Wp (Wattpiek) gebruikt. Een zonnepaneel van 100 Wp wekt naar schatting 80 kWh per jaar op, een installatie van 3500 Wp levert dus 2800 kWh. Een gezin gebruikt jaarlijks ongeveer 3600 kWh aan elektriciteit. Een paneel van 100 Wp kostte tot voor kort ongeveer 600 euro, exclusief verzekering, installatie en wat dies meer zij.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/3627094/_Zonnep ... tml?p=25,1

// Erik (binkey.nl)
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Post by Bwired »

The Dutch government did again a very good job! We have another new lottery system....yeah!
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Post by peter262626 »

thats realy cool system
you got there mate
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Post by MindBender »

I love the idea of generating your own energy, but I have my doubts: Solar panels are after all semiconductors. And not just the small ones, like computer chips, but whole wafers of them. Their purity grade isn't as good as required for computer chips so lot of shortcuts are taken while producing them, but the production process still costs A LOT of energy; Fossil energy, that is. Not to mention the purified water required and hazardous chemicals used. It is estimated that in a country as the Netherlands a solar panel needs about 10 years to produce the amount of energy it's manufacturing processes have cost. I think that puts their environmental contribution is a somewhat different perspective: For the first 10 years it's rather an investment of energy than a renewable source of it's own.

Knowing this, it only makes sense to buy solar panels if they are heavily sponsored by the government of if you expect a heavy increase in energy prices. Though that latter problem can also be solved by getting a long term contract with your energy supplier.

From the other hand: Nothing beats the feeling of being self sustaining in your energy supply. Especially if you're turning energy preservation into a hobby. So I will probably get my installation too. However, I wonder for how long energy companies will be paying back the same price for received and supplied energy. I suppose most of us are not at home during 'production hours' and the new clever energy meters their trying to get installed into our homes will make it possible make it run backwards slower.

Be careful with what you can buy second hand. Especially the earlier generations of panels used to degrade very fast; Up to 50% in the first 5 years. And without special equipment there's no reliable way of determining the state they're in. And inverters come in different levels of sophistication too: The internal resistance of a solar panel varies under different loads. A good inverter automatically determines the optimal load for it's panels, increasing the efficiency of the system. I know for a fact that Philips has done a lot of R&D in this field, but I'm sure their competitors haven't stayed behind.
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Post by Lennart »

Hi Mindbender,

Although it does cost quite some energy to produce solar panels, I think your statements are based on some persistent misconceptions in the general publics mindset about the subject. Opponents of solar power sometimes even claim that solar panels won't even generate the amount of energy that was used in producing them during their *entire lifespan* and as it is an easy oneliner to remember, it tends to turn up now and then in popular media.

Several scientific studies were conducted with exactly this aspect of PV systems as their focus, ranging from research to decide just the energy pay-back time up to research into the entire lifetime cycle of pv-systems (production, transport, installation, operation, monitoring, maintenance and recycling, including other system components such as frames, mounts, cabling, inverters, etc.).

Although the outcome of these studies tend to vary somewhat, depending on assumptions regarding module efficiency, solar insolation, and the system components taken into account, the general conclusion is that under Dutch circumstances, it will take between 1 and 4 years to generate the energy that was used during the production of a solar system.

Consider for instance the following scientific publication by some researchers working for Utrecht University:

Environmental life-cycle assessment of multicrystalline silicon solar cell modules http://www.chem.uu.nl/nws/www/publica/95057.pdf

"Under Dutch insolation conditions the energy pay-back time of a frameless module as described in the base case is estimated at 1.3 years (3.8 resp. 0.5 yr for worst and best case). Addition of an aluminum frame increases the energy pay-back time with 0.4 yr in
the base case."

(Note that this publication is from 1995 and energy efficiency as well as module efficiency has improved since then.)

Furthermore, you are first "accusing" solar panels of being produced using fossil fuel (and thus being polluting) and then you claim that it will take 10 years for the panels to regenerate their production energy. Of course, it cannot be the case that both arguments are valid at the same time: either you produce a solar panel using fossil fuel and it is therefore somewhat polluting (but then you don't need time to regenerate the energy to produce the panel as it was produced using fossil fuel) XOR you use energy generated by other solar panels to produce a solar panel and then you do need to take the regeneration time into account (but no fossil fuel has been used and it's therefore not polluting).

Moving on to your statement about cell degeneration being up to 50%: this might have been the case during the *very* early years, but all commercially available panels from A-brands that were sold since the early nineties came with a production guarantee of at least 80% after 20 or 25 years.

As far as inverters are concerned, I agree that a good inverter is of utmost importance for total system efficiency. As mentioned earlier, good brands are, among others, Sunnyboy, Gridfit, Mastervolt and Steca (previously Philips, but they bailed out of the pv market after just a very short stint).

In my opinion, any product that generates significantly more energy during its lifetime than was used during production (and installation, recycling, etc.) will be beneficial to the environment (disregarding raw materials, chemicals, etc. for the moment). With a lifespan of 25 to 30 years, solar panels certainly fulfill this criterium, even if their regeneration time would be 10 years.

And even if solar panels would only regenerate their production energy after an even longer time, there could still be considerations to put the technology to use. Being more independent from oil production gouverned by totalitarian regimes in unstable countries, for instance. Or not wanting to leave radioactive waste for thousands (!) of generations to come.

To put things into perspective: how long did it take your HA server or car to regenerate the energy that was used in producing it (or compensate the polluting effects of its use)?

Just my two cents :-).

Lennart
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Post by MindBender »

Thank you for your very well-funded arguments, Lennart! I was not aware of the scientific studies you pointed out. A break even point after 4 years (with the kind of summers we've been having recently) is much better than I expected. We're not too stubborn to learn ;-)

I didn't mean to "accuse" anyone, but it's a statistic fact that most solar panels are produced using fossil fuel. Given this, it makes them CO2 neutral after at most 4 years. Much better than I expected, but still not immediately. (Personally I don't believe in the green house effect due to the lack of scientific proof. 20 Years ago we were still afraid of new ice age due to global cooling. Nothing in nature in constant, including global temperature and amount of the energy outputted by the sun. CO2 has turned into a cash cow and so the myth continues. But that's a whole other discussion I'd rather not start here. <b>And since this environment is the only one we have, I think we need to treat it with the utmost care, just in case.</b>)

Coming back at XORing my statements: In a literal way they are mutually exclusive because generating fossil fuels using photo-voltaic cells doesn't make much sense becuase it's extremely complex and costs a lot of energy. But in the way we treat energy they are not mutually exclusive: We don't have separate supply channels so everything is thrown onto a big pile and buying green energy is just an administrative matter. This does make fossil energy interchangeable with the energy.

An efficiency loss of at most 20% after 20 or even 25 years is a big improvement. This would mean that after 4 years you'd have free energy for well over 21 more years... That's making a rather attractive prospect. How long are these modern panels expect to last? How likely are they to break down prematurely?

My HA installation will never save the energy it's consuming, let alone the energy it's production took. It brings comfort, but not enough to break-even if you see it's construction and maintenance as discomfort ;-) But it's fun to do and that's usually more important than anything else.
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Post by Bart »

Saw a very good Dutch documentary on the subject of solarenergy yesterday:http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht ... /40025880/. It can also be viewed online. In Dutch ....
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Post by TANE »

Thanks for the Tip,
video size is very low..but very interesting.
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Post by Bwired »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bart</i>
<br />Saw a very good Dutch documentary on the subject of solarenergy yesterday:http://www.vpro.nl/programma/tegenlicht ... /40025880/. It can also be viewed online. In Dutch ....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I saw that as well, and yes I really got inspired again.
But it was also very clear that the Dutch government is the worst when solar energy is involved. The technology on solar is also growing rapidly and the panels are getting better and should be becoming cheaper. Becoming cheaper is a thing that we don't recognize At all. The panels are still very expensive. But I'm sure I want a solar array on the Bwired house, maybe next year!
So good advice, you all should watch this documentary!
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Post by johnnie »

Look at this URL http://www.zonnepanelen-info.nl/zonnepa ... rdientijd/. It's a calculator that will tell you how long it will take to earn your investment back.
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