Dimmable Lights - HELP

Post by **Niknik** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:27 pm

I need to start "finishing" my ceilings - still have just a couple of lamps hanging from temporary sockets.

The issues are:

1) I do want to have dimming capabilities (preferably compatible with regular X10 dimming modules.)
2) Incandescent lamps are going to be banned soon (2009 in Ireland, a few years later in the US - and I suppose all other countries will do the same sooner or later) - so, incadescent lamps are defintely not an option. (I don't know if halogen lamps are included in this banning)

So, what other sorts of lamps, currently available and dimmable, would you suggest using for a new project?

I've heard there are compatible LED controllers, that can transform regular "dimming" AC voltages to LED light levels, but don't know if they are common.

I suspect that kind of controllers will become more common in the future, but my wife is not willing to live much longer with those "temporary lamps" that have been there for 2 years already.

So... HELP?

Edit:
Just apropriately, just after writing this post I came across an old "Circuit Cellar Magazine - August 2007" where Steve Ciarcia (one of the people responsible for me to be interested in Home Automation) wrote about the current lighting situation.

His conclusions were:
1) LED lights have a wide range of efficiencies and configurations. Current units have 50lm/W while higher efficiency ones are nearly 100 lm/W.
2) There are no current LED lamps that can match a 60W incandescent bulb. LED spotlights can be compared to 45-50W regular lamp, brightest nondirectional LED lamps are similar to 25W bulb.
3) LED lamps don't like dimmers. Dimmers need a minimum resistive load to work properly. Because most led lamps are under 10W and many have reactive-capacitive loads, TRIAC's go crazy.
4) Traditional X10 modules also don't work well with LED lamps. Some may turn on, many will not turn off. The trickle current to sense manual lamp control will cause the LED to flash. (Don't know if this applies to our European models)

So... are we stuck with having to wait for enhanced LED lamps/controllers to show up?

It shouldn't be too hard for manufacturers to make a "dimmer" compatible controler embedded into the Led Lamps - it would be far simpler than the CFL electronic ballasts.

Post by **Lennart** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:57 pm

Hi Niknik,

Basically, you have three options:

1) Use CFLs. Both Osram and Megaman currently have dimmerable CFLs available. Dimming is stepless between 10 and 100%. Efficiency is lower if dimmed, but still better than most LEDs. I've been testing some of the Megaman models: MM00730 and MM00851. These are E27 11W bulb type CFLs with a color temperature of 2700K. The MM00851 is a so called "romatic flame" model (the color is more towards red). Other models include E14, GU10, non-bulb form factors, etc. Note that the color temperature doesn't vary with the dimming level, as with incandescent bulbs (incandescent bulbs tend towards orange/red at low intensity; the CFLs stay at 2700K). The Megaman models work well with Xanura dimmers (or X10 is you like). At the highest intensity, the CFLs use 11W. At the lowest (10%) intensity, they use 5W. Note that these dimmerable CFLs are not (yet) available in the smallest sizes, as the electronic circuit still takes up some space. Price of these models is around EUR 15,- They should last 10.000 hours. Beware of the so called Megaman DorS CFLs. These are dimmerable, but have only a fixed number of dimming steps, to be selected by repeated turning on and off of the light => not suitable for X10/home automation purposes. I'm going to use the CFLs that I tested for lighting our living room.

More info (in Dutch): http://www.megaman.nl/megaman/index.php?page=9&serie=23

2) Use (power-)LED fixtures and dim these using a primary dimmer (i.e. a dimmer in the AC circuit). This requires the use of a LED driver that can transform the leading/trailing edge dimmer signal into a constant current DC signal (typically 350mA or 700mA) at the desired voltage. The Lumotech driver that I wrote about earlier (http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=182) could be used (it is currently supplied by Klemko). It works well with Xanura/X10, but you may see the discrete dimming steps while changing the intensity. I currently use this driver together with a Xanura dimmer for driving LED fixtures in our kitchen and stairs.

Link to Klemko data sheet (in Dutch): http://www.klemko.nl/user_files/LED%20m ... rsie02.pdf (look for product 876804)

3) Use LED fixtures and dim these using a secondary dimmer (i.e. a dimmer in the DC circuit). It could use pulse width modulation or variable voltage / constant current for dimming. To control the dimmer, different technologies could be used. You might opt for DMX equipment, as discussed in this forum (http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=580). DMX contolled power-LED drivers do exist. Or re-open the topic in which Han suggested a X10 controlled LED dimmer/driver (http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=38). I'm still interested in that module...

So, it all depends. Given the WAF (wife acceptancy factor) that demands quick results and the fact that the 230V AC sockets are already in place, it might be best to opt for dimmerable CFLs at this moment if your fixtures can accomodate bulbs in the available sizes and maybe wait for affordable and powerful LED fixtures for future use. If you do switch to LED, note that you must also find a place to put the transformer/driver into. If the fixtures are too small, you might need to run new DC wires through the ceiling

.

Lennart

Post by **Niknik** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:09 pm

Thanks Lennart for all the info. I'll be digesting it for a while, and trying to get some of those dimmable CFLs.

I have a "lowered false ceiling", still "intact" with just a couple lamps hanging by - so, I'd just like to stick to a future proof solution so I don't need to worry about it in a couple of years - no problem in runnig wires, and there's enough space for hundreds of transfomers, controlers, etc.

As for that custom lighting module from Han, yes I'm using on of his - and it's great! (one of the few dimmmers I have that makes absolutely no "humming" noise. And of course, as we can change its program: I can program it for slow fades, and it allows tweaking for led control if needed (though I'm a software guy and can't really do much electronics without help from friends

- however I also don't want to "bother" him too much, that's why I'm inquiring what's available in the market to see what I can do without "custom" stuff.

Ideally i'd need dozens of these modules - and we get back to that issue of ordering maybe a "larger" quantity that we can assemble like a simple kit - that would be enough for all of us (if he agrees, of course.)

Well, for now i'll try those CFL and see how they work.

Post by **Lennart** » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:42 pm

Hi Niknik,

Just let me know if you have problems obtaining the Megamam dimmerable CFLs. I'd be willing to get some for you and ship these to Portugal at the cost price, if needed.

Lennart

Post by **Niknik** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:07 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by lennart
Just let me know if you have problems obtaining the Megamam dimmerable CFLs. I'd be willing to get some for you and ship these to Portugal at the cost price, if needed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks very much for the offer! I really appreciate it.
Will let you know if I can find it here in Portugal or not.

Post by **Niknik** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:28 pm

Lennart, what exactly is the difference between the normal CFL and the "Romantic Flame"?
They both state having the same color temperature...
Is it only more "redish color", or does it have any kind of flickering flame effect?

How long does it take for it to reach full "luminosity"?(I have some CFL that reach max light output in just a few seconds, while others take nearly 1 minute)

Their MM00639 18W model seem like it would be a good candidate for lighting large areas...

I guess I'll probably end up asking you to ship some of each for me to try out.

We better just let pass Christmas, as postal delivery is usually delayed a lot around this time.

Post by **Lennart** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:04 pm

Hi Niknik,

Your question regarding the normal version versus the romantic flame was exactly my question. That's why I bought one of each. It turns out that the romantic flame version has the same 2700K CFL, but the bulb is kind of orange/red, which makes the overall color temperature lower. I prefer the normal version, especially if you need primary lighting, instead of background lighting. On the other hand, my girl friend likes the romantic flame better, especially for background lighting. There's no flickering or other effect, as the "flame" might suggest.

These CFLs are pretty fast; they reach maximum intensity after a short while (some seconds).

The MM00639 indeed seems to be a wise choice for larger areas.

Sending some of each after Christmas is no problem for me. Note that it may take some time for me to obtain them, as they are not that common yet. I have access to an electrotechnical wholesale company and they can deliver these CFLs at a reasonable price (MM00639 for approx. EUR 17,50 where the price list says EUR 22,95), but it will take a couple of weeks. For other prices as listed by Megaman: http://www.megaman.nl/files/download/pr ... 102007.pdf.

We can make further arrangement using e-mail.

Lennart

Post by **Niknik** » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:49 pm

Thanks Lennart. I'll email you directly.

Post by **KidE** » Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:26 pm

I've just purchased a few 7 Watt 2700K GU10 dimmable LED spots and they are Superb!. The light is truely amazing if you compare it to "Warm White 3000K"
Iǘe compared it to the old 50Watt Halogen spots that we had bofore and the light is almost the same (give or take 100K)

And they work perfectly with my FS20 dimmers

Price: 27,30 euro incl VAT

Home Automation Domotica Forum Europe, Bwired Forum