Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

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Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby hobbes444 » Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:13 pm

I read here that there is a new Danfoss Living Connect for radiator, which support Z-Wave SDK 4.5

I am in the process of checking what I could use for my radiator. So far the danfoss is the only one which uses a non-proprietary protocol. Max! and HomeMatic are the only two others I could find compatible with my radiator valves Oventrop M30 1.5 mm but they are proprietary (BidCos for HomeMatic and I don't even know what for Max!).

Back to the Danfoss Living Connect. What I *think* I know so far:
– the model 014G0002 doesn't support z-wave anymore since firmware 3.02 (seriously?)
– the model 014G0012 support z-wave and is newer
– the new DAN_LC-13 (014G0013) supports SDK 4.5 (although here is says it doesn't support explorer frames, so not 100% sure)
– SDK 4.5 provides explorer frame and Network Wide Inclusion. Explorer Frame is useful if some thermostatic radiator valves loose power (empty battery) and a new path has to be calculated. Network-wide Inclusion is based on Explorer Frame and enables plug&play of new devices, thus only useful for setting up new devices.

Now, I have a couple of questions:
– is there any way to later upgrade the firmware of these thermostats?
– Does it make sense to invest more money in order to have support for SDK 4.5? While I may add further z-wave devices, the 13 radiator valves will probably continue to represent the biggest part of my future z-wave network.
– why does it costs twice as much? (64€!)
– Does anyone knows if the 014G0013 support Oventrop M30 x 1,5 mm? (It seems yes, with adapter 014G0252, but not sure)

Thanks for any insight here, I am struggling a bit to decide what is the best way for me (standards vs. proprietary, price, etc.).
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby martynwendon » Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:07 pm

hobbes444 wrote:– the model 014G0002 doesn't support z-wave anymore since firmware 3.02 (seriously?)


Correct!

hobbes444 wrote:– the model 014G0012 support z-wave and is newer


Correct!

hobbes444 wrote:– the new DAN_LC-13 (014G0013) supports SDK 4.5


Correct - according to Danfoss that's the *only* difference between the new model and the old model. It will fix a compatibility issue with the MiCasaVerde Vera Z-Wave controllers where the Z-Wave version has to be rolled back to 2.78 in order to stop the Danfoss going into "panic mode".

hobbes444 wrote:– is there any way to later upgrade the firmware of these thermostats?


Z-Wave does allow for "over the air" firmware upgrades, but it requires support at the controller and device level. Not many controllers support that (I believe that Fibaro HC2 does and HomeSeer 3 is being worked on). I don't believe that the new Danfoss will support it - I might be wrong though.

hobbes444 wrote:– Does it make sense to invest more money in order to have support for SDK 4.5? While I may add further z-wave devices, the 13 radiator valves will probably continue to represent the biggest part of my future z-wave network.


I guess it depends on what, if any, Z-Wave controller / devices you have at the moment? If you're planning on getting a Vera, then I'd say the new Danfoss would be the better option. But, you could also consider the StellaZ. The Danfoss has local display and control and is a decent looking device, but it doesn't report the temperature back to the Z-Wave network. The StellaZ is pretty ugly and doesn't have local display or control, but does report the temperature back to the Z-Wave network. It's also possible to put the StellaZ into "direct mode" with some controllers, so that you can directly control the opening percentage as opposed to just setting a set-point.

So it really depends on what you want to do? You'll also need some way of interlocking the boiler if there's no demand for heat from the radiators, the Secure Thermostat and Boiler Receiver are good options for that.

hobbes444 wrote:– why does it costs twice as much? (64€!)


Twice as much as what? The new Danfoss (014G0013) is around 10% more than the current Danfoss (014G0012).

hobbes444 wrote:– Does anyone knows if the 014G0013 support Oventrop M30 x 1,5 mm? (It seems yes, with adapter 014G0252, but not sure)


Looking at the adaptor, I'd say yes, but only one way to be sure!!


Hope that helps!
Martyn Wendon
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby raymonvdm » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:22 pm

I have had contact with danfoss support and it is not possible to upgrade the firmware of the danfoss units. I bought an 014G0002 (by accident) and it is not possible to upgrade it to a 014G00012. The 014G0002 stopped Z-Wave support due to issues with the Danfoss controller so they decided to change the software and there fore are not longer z-wave compatible. However it is possible to connect the 014G0002 to a z-wave controller
Running HS3PRO on PC with Z-Wave / OpenTherm / Plugwise / RFXcom / MQTT / XAP400 / Logitech Media Server and Squeezelite on PI`s
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby hobbes444 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:23 am

martynwendon wrote:
hobbes444 wrote:– Does it make sense to invest more money in order to have support for SDK 4.5? While I may add further z-wave devices, the 13 radiator valves will probably continue to represent the biggest part of my future z-wave network.


I guess it depends on what, if any, Z-Wave controller / devices you have at the moment? If you're planning on getting a Vera, then I'd say the new Danfoss would be the better option. But, you could also consider the StellaZ. The Danfoss has local display and control and is a decent looking device, but it doesn't report the temperature back to the Z-Wave network. The StellaZ is pretty ugly and doesn't have local display or control, but does report the temperature back to the Z-Wave network. It's also possible to put the StellaZ into "direct mode" with some controllers, so that you can directly control the opening percentage as opposed to just setting a set-point.

So it really depends on what you want to do? You'll also need some way of interlocking the boiler if there's no demand for heat from the radiators, the Secure Thermostat and Boiler Receiver are good options for that.


I have zero z-wave devices. I live in Germany, where the Max! and HomeMatic systems, which are proprietary, are cheaper (30-35€ the radiator valve). I intend in a first step to equip 13 radiators with new valves. Thus, 30€ instead of 60€ per valves makes a big difference to me, even though I really dislike proprietary solutions and the lock-in that comes with it.

Thanks a lot for the „Stella Z“ hint. Didn't know about it. it is also 2cm shorter than the danfoss connect, I need to check for each radiator, but that might be useful, at least for some of them.

For the central station, I will start thinking about it once I decide what I'll take for the radiator valves, since this will be my biggest cost factor by far.

martynwendon wrote:
hobbes444 wrote:– why does it costs twice as much? (64€!)


Twice as much as what? The new Danfoss (014G0013) is around 10% more than the current Danfoss (014G0012).


My mistake, I was comparing with the 014G0002.

martynwendon wrote:
hobbes444 wrote:– Does anyone knows if the 014G0013 support Oventrop M30 x 1,5 mm? (It seems yes, with adapter 014G0252, but not sure)


Looking at the adaptor, I'd say yes, but only one way to be sure!!


Hope that helps!


Thanks a lot for the detailled reply!
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby hobbes444 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:24 am

raymonvdm wrote:I have had contact with danfoss support and it is not possible to upgrade the firmware of the danfoss units. I bought an 014G0002 (by accident) and it is not possible to upgrade it to a 014G00012. The 014G0002 stopped Z-Wave support due to issues with the Danfoss controller so they decided to change the software and there fore are not longer z-wave compatible. However it is possible to connect the 014G0002 to a z-wave controller


Thanks for confirming this, it is really too bad.
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby raymonvdm » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:35 am

When i look at the pricing, they get more expensive each time :cry:

014G0012 - € 56,50
014G0013 - € 67,95

Not sure why i would need the 014G0013
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Re: Danfoss Living Connect and Z-Wave SDK 4.5

Postby hobbes444 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:51 am

I am also less and less sure about the fact that I would need the SDK 4.5, and thus the 014G0013: since I only plan for radiator thermostats for now, they will all be battery operated and thus not repeaters. That makes Explorer Frames and Network Wide Inclusion useless. Additionally, even with repeaters, since radiator are the most static stuff I have in my home, explorer frames are not very useful, except for Network Wide Inclusion, but that's a one time setup thing, supposing I need a repeater.
Finally, if later on I want SDK 4.5 devices (in case the network grows for example), I still can do it. The radiator thermostats won't be able to participate, that's all.

The only thing that could motivate me is if the 014G0013 is reporting back the temperature or is somehow more reliable. I'll wait for reviews to pop up.
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