Individual Room Control ELV the MAX!

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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby Bwired » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:34 am

Not sure if I follow you guys?
I think you are talking about the possiblity to also control the HVAC with this Max system
For me (and more members) is only important that i can control the radiator valvues, as my hvac i can control that otherwise already.
I want to be able to set every radiator valve to a certain temp setting, manual on the valve or automatic by my HA system. My HA systems sees that a certain temp is needed in a certain room and puts on the Hvac.

Thats why we want to interface with the valvues through the Max Lan controller with our own software (we need to perhaps hack it a bit)
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby KidE » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:35 pm

Ok i understand that you want to set the valves manually but keep in mind that setting valves manually can be a bitch. If i look to myself i don't want to be running around the different rooms setting the valves manually.
Another issues these systems have is that they open the valve on a % base. So lets say the room temp is 18 degrees, you set it to 20 and the valve opens for 15% while the boiler/pump get to full workload.
Since the valve only opens for 15% the flow of water isn't that great and it doesn't use the full potential of your system. In the end it will save less energy as intended. I've tried this extensively and its true.
The FHT actuators are opened on a % basis also but only if they are instructed externally. The Temp sensor is located in the room unit and it tells the device to open an x %.
Because the actuators are FS20 based they react on external messages and they can be controlled to open by any correct FS20 message.
For optimal energy usage you want the valve to open 100% giving the hot water fee path to the radiator. When the temperature hits (lets say) 19,5 degrees you can shut the valve totally and the remaining energy will heat up till 20 degrees.
If you have a system that has a temp sensor inside the actuator you will not be able to do this.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby jrkalf » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:29 pm

To correct Ernst a bit on his story. The system reacts on FHT messages. They're somewhat similar to FS20, as they're on the same 868.35MHz band at a 1KHz datarate, but otherwise the protocol and adressing is a bit different.

For the part of the actuator he's more correct. If you place the temperature sensor so close to the heat supplier of a room, you'll get a faulty reading on the actual temperature of the room.

For the coding part, there'll be some coding involved. Most of these devices use a 2 way handshake setup to pair the devices. this prevents outsiders illegally changing the temperature in your house.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem!

Fibaro HC2, various z-wave switching, alerting, detection modules.
ELV FHT80b heating system.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby Bwired » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:20 pm

Some remarks:
- set the temp manually on valve is only if somebody wants the temp up in a room, this can be done with domoticapanel or on the valve. On the valve wont be used much.
- interfacing with the valves is not needed because the Max is doing that for us. So we need a more easier interface with the Max
- i understand the valve is sensing temp also and that is not accurate, agree on that one, but i have enough other tempsensors who can do that job.
- if the valve can be opened percentage wise, that is good, totally open and close is more then enough.
- using the full potential of the hvac like weathercontrol etc. Sucks, i had a lot of trouble with this option. it was not heating my house the right way and taking much to long. i and other members chnaged this to fully use the potential of the hvac with a much better heating result and gas usage only a little bit more. See other topics on this.

The question for me is how simple can we interface with the Max :)
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby jrkalf » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:23 pm

For now all I can say: 868.35MHz, I'll try to mail the guys from culfw in the mailing group to see if anybody has tested with MAX! yet.
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem!

Fibaro HC2, various z-wave switching, alerting, detection modules.
ELV FHT80b heating system.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby jrkalf » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:01 pm

Bwired,

I've done some digging in the FHEM documentation to find anything that might help with the MAX! stuff. I'm not sure, but most stuff by eQ-3 nowadays is on the bidcos protocol at a 10KHz datarate. Which is incompatible with the FHT/FS20 system. Some more information can be found here: http://fhem.de/commandref.html#CUL_HM

Still, it's not 100% sure this also accounts for the MAX! system. I hope this helps you a bit. I'll still post a message in the cul-fans (google mailgroup) to see. A search of the group showed there hasn't been any messages on this yet.


---- Edited ---
I hate to keep posting new messages on my own replies.. so here's an edit.

Been digging a bit deeper, I've found about everything I didn't want to know from instruction manuals in various languages to European conformity documents, EXCEPT for the used protocol. (them fsckers)...

However, making an assumption here, and I'm thinking it's a rather solid one:
Looking at the used device packaging (shape of the product and location of the buttons), it's being used on the 868.35MHz band and the same devices are seemingly also listed in the HomeMatic (bidcos protocol) brochure of 2010... it's fairly save to assume BidCos is being used.
their HomeMatic brochure: http://www.eq-3.de/fileadmin/pdfs/HM_Br ... _small.pdf
(what strikes me odd in this document is the HomeMatic (bidcos) base station situated next to a FHT8v actuator which is using a different protocol)

their entire product suite brochure: http://www.eq-3.de/fileadmin/pdfs/eQ-3_ ... 010_GB.pdf
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem!

Fibaro HC2, various z-wave switching, alerting, detection modules.
ELV FHT80b heating system.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby blb » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:37 pm

Hi all,

I guess more of you did notice this equipment was gone from the website, but it's back now. I will order the MAX! Cube LAN-Gateway and some MAX! Heizkörperthermostats and see if I can integrate it in Homeseer.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby Bwired » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:50 pm

keep us posted interesting stuff...
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby jrkalf » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:06 pm

blb wrote:Hi all,

I guess more of you did notice this equipment was gone from the website, but it's back now. I will order the MAX! Cube LAN-Gateway and some MAX! Heizkörperthermostats and see if I can integrate it in Homeseer.


Cool,

I'm very interested if the max stuff works and if it can be extended using regular FS20 modules (which I seriously doubt)
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem!

Fibaro HC2, various z-wave switching, alerting, detection modules.
ELV FHT80b heating system.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby blb » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:29 pm

I have ordered the stuff, according DHL website I expect the delivery tomorrow. Keep you posted about my findings.

update: I have received the stuff already yesterday (25-08). I've been playing a bit with it, the gateway is up and running and 1 of the 2 thermostats is attached to it and in control. standard software configuration is a java application (web server) running on a (Windows) pc which connects to the gateway. You can choose to enable or disable internet access. If you enable internet access, a username and password must be provided. I assume these credentials are negotiated with the ELV portal directly; after I enabled internet access, I could login in my system via the ELV portal, but I did not see the room and thermostat I created. Not sure I like this approach anyhow.... I haven't found a smartphone application yet.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby Bwired » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:09 am

OK good News
That portal via ELV sucks big time, try if you can login locally on the MAX via its IPnr.
Is the Java app running on your PC, it connects through Lan also, or is a USB port available?
There are some options to check the traffic between it.
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby blb » Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:25 am

I'm a bit further. the USB port on the MAX! gateway is only for power, communication to network is done via the Ethernet port. I have installed wireshark on the pc with the java app and set the ip address of the gateway fixed via reservation in my dhcp server. Communication is done via port 80. communication is done via HTTP messages. If I connect with browser or with telnet to the ip address (port 80), I get:

Code: Select all
H:IEQ0112015,00bbfa,0102,00000000,21b80e6e,03,32
M:00,01,VgIBAQhCYWRrYW1lcgA6FwEBADoXSUVRMDEwOTYxOAhSYWRpYXRvcgEB
C:00bbfa,7QC7+gACAf9JRVEwMTEyMDE1AAsABEAAAAAAAAAAAP///////////////////////////wsABEAAAAAAAAAAQf///////////////////////////2h0dHA6Ly93d3cubWF4LXBvcnRhbC5lbHYuZGU6ODAvY3ViZQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAENFVAAACgADAAAOEENFU1QAAwACAAAcIA==
C:003a17,0gA6FwEBFP9JRVEwMTA5NjE4Kh49CQcYAzAD/wBAVFSRSORU/kEgQSBBIEUgRSBFIEUgRSBFIEBUVJFI5FT+QSBBIEEgRSBFIEUgRSBFIEUgQEhUbETkVRRBIEEgQSBFIEUgRSBFIEUgRSBASFRsRORVFEEgQSBBIEUgRSBFIEUgRSBFIEBIVGxE5FUUQSBBIEEgRSBFIEUgRSBFIEUgQEhUbETkVRRBIEEgQSBFIEUgRSBFIEUgRSBASFRsRORVFEEgQSBBIEUgRSBFIEUgRSBFIA==
L:CwA6FwASGQAeAAAA


In Telnet i tried some responses from the Java app, and I did get the same response back as the Java app and, after I connected to the Java app (web site), the command was executed!

Code: Select all
s:AARAAAAAADoXAUo=\r\n           # manual 5 graden no end time
s:AARAAAAAADoXAUw=\r\n           # manual 6 graden no end time
s:AARAAAAAADoXAU4=\r\n           # manual 7 graden no end time
s:AARAAAAAADoXAV4=\r\n           # eco temp
s:AARAAAAAADoXAQA=\r\n           # auto week program


so, the good News is: direct communication with the MAX! Gateway is possible via telnet to it's IP adress on port 80.
The bad News is the content of the messages and commands is not (yet) fully known. It would be great to get a description of the full protocol, but even without I have the feeling this can work
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX

Postby Bwired » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:49 am

Thats good News.
what do you exactly mean with:
after I connected to the Java app (web site), the command was executed!

Do you mean that you can not give the commands directly to the MAX!, you still need the Java program
I will help you soon, my ToDo is big now, but I will order 1.

BTW: do you know how many the MAX is consuming power
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX!

Postby blb » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:45 pm

no, you don't need the Java application, I can direct give commands to the Max! gateway.

about power consumption: the gateway is powered via USB, it can be powered via USB port on computer or via USB power adapter (included in the delivery). Currently I'm using the USB power adapter. The power consumption must be very low, my cresta power meter can't measure it; it shows 0 watt....
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Re: Individual Room Control ELV the MAX!

Postby Alexander » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:08 pm

Now this is interesting. I'm still ZWave oriented but if i look at the price diffences this can be a very good option.
I will make a HS plugin if that would be the case.
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