II LOG or not II LOG ( buying/starting tips )

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II LOG or not II LOG ( buying/starting tips )

Post by Richard »

Hi BWired (and the rest of this forum)

As mentioned early'er i want to start with buying some 1-Wire hardware for my first steps. After reading alot on your site and this forum i still have some small questions.

I read that you use the LOG from the Midon company, at this moment the LOG is replaced by the LOG II variant (with some less possibility's if i read correctly against the 'old' LOG), can you tell me something about the output of this device? and maybe a small example of how the commands are look like when you (or the bwired software) is talking to the LOG device?

Some point i didn't find on the midon site about the LOG II is, if the LOG II has the capability's to log some switch state's (for example: the state of a NC or NO doorcontact) i know it supports the DS2423 based counters, but AFAIK this isn't the same as a NO/NC contact state.)

I also looked at the Ethernet 1-Wire® Bus Master (HA7NET) device, it looks as a very good device to me, but i think this device isn't capable to log data (with no pc attached) as the LOG II does.
Is this a correct conclusion?

What i think i need is a standalone device with the capability's to log/registering some 1-Wire data and store it internally so the pc can collect it at 'any' moment (with in mind that there is a fysical limit of storing capability's).

Do you good experience with the LOG BWired? and would you buy it again if you can do it all over?

What kind of power supply do you have attached to your LOG device BWired? this because if i'm gonna buy this device (depending on the reactions at some questions) i gonna need some power supply, and midon has only powersupply (adapter) for the USA with a voltage of 110V instead of 230Vac.

Are there some other competitive device's with 'the same' features/capability's as the LOG II?

So the big question of all times :) what do you guys recomment to me?

So if i understand it all correctly then i need the following ingredients (materials) for logging/registrating a gas/energy meter. correct me if i am wrong.<ul>
<li>Some 1-Wire Host device for interface the 1-Wire network with an pc, with or without (standalone) logging capability's.</li>
<li>Some 1-Wire Counter, for example the TAI8586 1-Wire double optocoupled counter module from the aagelectronica company</li>
<li>Some puls reflective sensor, wich can count the reflection mark on the gas meter. this could be from the company Conrad, Farnell etc etc.</li>
<li>Some power supply for the 1-Wire (Host/Network)</li>
<li>Some cables to attach the 1-Wire counter with the host device</li>
<li>Some serial/nullmodem/rs232 cable to attach the host to the pc (depents a little bit of the host device)</li>
<li>A box with a lott of patience, luck and good wills :)</li>
<li>A good filled walled</li>
<li>The BWired forum.</li>
</ul>

I'm very curious about the way to/you are interfacing with the LOG device (i think it's a developer's thing to be as curious as i am :)) from the pc.

This would be all for this moment, i just wait and read the reply(s), and here the same story... if satisfied then i think im gonna place a order somewhere :).
(Someone tips, hints? stores? prices? for buying the needed hardware)

Thanks in advance everyone,

Richard Donckerbergh
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II LOG or not II LOG ( buying/starting tips )

Post by Richard »

Is this post 'forgotten'? :)
or is everybody very bussy at this moment. ;)

Richard
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Post by Bwired »

lotta questions [8D]

Yes you are right the LOG08 and the LOG08 II don't support the DS2405, DS2406, DS2407 switch input or output sensors. Before ordering please check first with Midon or AAG to be sure. Strange is that the Temp08 is supporting them! But the Temp08 has no memory to store the reading. I still have a lot of switching sensors here because I thought they could be connected to the log08 [:(]. I don't use the memory part of the LOG08 this because I need the data like every minute!

And that is another issue about 1-wire, keep in mind that the Log08, and I think also other 1-wire devices, are not that fast. Polling the wire and reading all the data of all the devices connected to the wire is taking you around seconds to do. I have 15 1-wire devices connected to the LOG08 and it's taking > 5 seconds to retrieve the data. [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] bwiredhcswire.gif For me it's not that bad, I have 4 1-wire counters (TAI8586 based on DS2423) and 11 temperature sensors (DS18S20). I Instructed the LOG08 to poll the 1-wire every minute, the LOG08 is connected with rs232 to my server and a little Visual Basic 6 function is listening to the rs232 comport and trigged when data arrives. The data from 1-wire is data I don't need directly in my home control system. Counters I use for Gas, cold water, hot water and energy counting. You need some additional sensors which generate a pulse for the 1-wire devices.

There is also a plain simple DS9097U Universal 1-Wire Comm. Port adapter, I could use this device instead of the LOG08 because my server is always on and I poll the wire only once a minute. Also the TAI8586 has memory of its own, so if the LOG08 goes down the counting of this sensor doesn't!

I also looked at the HA7NET some time ago but I'm not convinced about the possibilities, information is poor on this device. Here is the user manual for more info [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] HA7NetUsersManual.pdf
For power supply a normal (Dutch adapter) will, no problem at all.

Regards


Pieter Knuvers
www.bwired.nl Online House in the netherlands. Domotica, Home Automation.
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II LOG or not II LOG ( buying/starting tips )

Post by Richard »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the responses

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
I still have a lot of switching sensors here bacause I thought they could be connected to the log08
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What kind of switching sensors are these? modelnr, brand. store? This because i find it hard to 'find' these on the internet.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
I don't use the memory part of the LOG08 this because I need the data like every minute!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Oke, thats clear. I thought u use the log especially for it's buffering capability's, but i thought wrong :) So if the logging capability's are not required then the Temp08 can be also an interesting device. Don't you think so?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
....LOG08 and it's taking > 5 seconds to retrieve the data.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This wouln'd be a problem for me right now, a polling interval of one minute would be fast enough (i think). And if... this gonna be a problem then it would be time to buy another host device to set-up a second 1-wire network.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
You need some additional sensors which generate a pulse for the 1-wire devices.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What do you mean with this? Some optical hardware to attach to the TAI8586?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
Also the TAI8586 has memory of its own, so if the LOG08 goes down the counting of this sensor doesn't!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Is this enough to ensure the counting of the gas/electric meter will go on even when the pc is rebooting or something?
or do you say the counting stops but the sensor hold's it last counts data, so when the pc is up and running again then you can poll/read the stored data from it?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
I also looked at the HA7NET some time ago but i'm not convinced about the possibilities, information is poor on this device.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thats my conclusion also :) and because of the price of the device i don't want to take the guess. But the Ethernet interface is verry attractive so i try to find/collect some more info about this HA7NET.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
For powersupply a normal (Dutch adapter) will, no problem at all.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
And about what kind of power useage are we talking about? would an 500mA be fine?


Thanks for the replys, now i'm gonna look and investigate the diffences between the LOGII and the Temp08 :)

I keep you all informed.

Richard
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Post by Bwired »

Hi Richard,
The 1-Wire switches I have is the DS2405, from Dallas only works on the temp08. Indeed for me the TEMP08 was sufficient and perhaps better because I don't use the logging option.
On the TAI8586 1-wire counter you can connect 2 devices which generate the pulse count. For example my water meter generates a pulse when 0.5 liter water is consumed. The pulse is only a shortcut between two wires, if simply connected to the TAI8586 this would generate a count in the memory of the device. The TAI8586 is able to count 65535 in to its own memory before starting with 0 again. Yes even when the PC is off, not when the when the Temp08/LOG08 is of and using parasite power. The Midon TEMP08 / LOG08 can also provide the 1-wire network with power (parasite). 500ma will do depending on how much devices you have on the wire and if the are using parasite power or not(no own power supply per device). I have a 1000ma Switching adapter but this actually to much.
regards
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II LOG or not II LOG ( buying/starting tips )

Post by Richard »

Peter,

Thanks for the reply.

Because after thinking it allover again i came to the conclusion that i not really need a logger with standalone logging capability's. And i want to use the 2405 also, so the choice then was verry simple. A Temp08 it will be.

So I just (yesterday) order'd my stuff :) so let's the fun (an new hobby) begin.

Order'd materials (Midon):
1 MD2112 TEMP08 Case plus panel
1 MD2104 TEMP08 Assembled and Tested
1 MD3003 Dallas Semiconductor DS18S20 One-Wire sensor (TO-92 package)
1 MD3020C DS18S20 Temperature sensor with terminal strip connector and 2 RJ-11
1 MD3014 DS2405 Input/output 1-wire sensor

Order'd materials (AAG):
1 TAI8586 1-Wire double optocoupled counter module
1 TAI8555 1-Wire Switch with Temp. Sensor: DS18S20

So post men, make my day and deliver my packages :)

But seriously, does anybody know (or have some experience with) the expected delivery time? With the Midon Company i think (and hope) approx. one week. and with the AAG company i think (based on feeling) the it can last till 1 to 4 weeks.
Both company's are writing that they use the USPS company for 'transport' / sending packages.

With Regards,

Richard (he can't hardly wait to receive his 'toy's') :)
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Post by Bwired »

Yes I have ordered devices from both company's. If I recall correctly MIDON has a supplier in the Netherlands who takes care of only sending, so I think you will receive that soon. AAG Comes from Mexico so will take a bit longer. Good luck with the 1-Wire project.
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Post by Richard »

Hi to all,

Finally... :) my Midon package has arrived, after a quick connect the parts are working perfectly with the HyperTerminal app.
So i would say: "let the party begin" (and development)
Keep you all informed.

Richard
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Post by Bwired »

Midon is really fast! Goodluck and let us know how youa re getting along. We hope to see your project under topic Home Automation Projects http://www.domoticaforum.eu/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=17
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Post by Digit »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>
<br />Hi Richard,
The TAI8586 is able to count 65535 in to its own memory before starting with 0 again.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The TAI8586 is based on the DS2423, so isn't this a 32-bit counter (ranging from 0-4.294.967.295) ?

Regards,
Digit.
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Post by Bwired »

Hi,

I have 2 different 1-Wire counters, the TAI8585 and the TAI8586.
I think the difference is that the TAI8585 can handle 1 pulse counter and the TAI8586 can handle two. I checked the manuals and they are both equiped with the DS2423 and the both have a 32 bit counter. Combined with the log08 it only counts to 65535 then it starts with 0 again. Made a little mistake in the upper topic, I am using the TAI8585 for gas monitoring instead of the TAI8586.
regards Pieter

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Post by klone »

I have written a nice logging & graphing application (it is free), which you can find at http://www.klein.com/thermd/. I have access to a <i>lot</i> of different data collectors and sensors. So I have used the Embedded Data Systems HA7Net, Midon Design Temp08, Sensatronics EM1, AVTECH Software Room Alert 11E, Quality Kits QK145 and VK011 (and am now working on the Hobby Boards 6-channel master hub). That said, I've had to get into the programming innards of all of these.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>

And that is another issue about 1-wire, keep in mind that the Log08, and I think also other 1-wire devices, are not that fast. Polling the wire and reading all the data of all the devices connected to the wire is taking you around seconds to do. I have 15 1-wire devices connected to the LOG08 and it's taking > 5 seconds to retrieve the data.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you want to speed things up (in general) then not using parasitic power is the way to go. The DS18S20 reads temperatures a <i>lot</i> faster when you use Vdd, gnd, and data.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bwired</i>

I also looked at the HA7NET some time ago but I'm not convinced about the possibilities, information is poor on this device. Here is the user manual for more info [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] HA7NetUsersManual.pdf
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Pieter, that's the old manual (and you're right, it wasn't that good). The [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img]new manual is <i>much</i> better!

To my mind, the HA7Net is the best of all the data collectors that I have used. Here are my reasons an analysis of all the systems): <ul><li>The Quality Kits QK145 and VK011 only measure temperature, and no more than four sensors. They stream data (which means that if you connect to them, they tell you the data roughly once a second). The VK011 also maintains high and low temperatures for you, but if you want historical trends (i.e., graphs), you have to read the data regularly. The QK145 does not require a power supply, and the VK011 has an optional power supply (they can get power from the RS-232 line).</li><br /><li>The AVTECH Room Alert 7E, Room Alert 11E and TemPageR can all read temperature, the 11E can also read humidity, and both the 7E and 11E can read switches. But they are limited to the number of sensors. They all have built-in alarm mechanisms (they can page you!) and a very cool web interface for reading data (and a special telnet port to get streaming data like the QK145). However, if you want historical trends (i.e., graphs), you have to read the data regularly.</li><br /><li>The Sensatronics EM1 can measure temperature, humidity, and wetness (great for places that might flood), but is also limited to the number of sensors. If you want to get the data, you have to read it from a web interface (they have a number of convenient data formats available). However, if you want historical trends (i.e., graphs), you have to read the data regularly. </li> <br /> <li>The Midon Design TEMP08 (and LOG08) support the 1-wire <i>bus</i> (which means that theoretically, you can attach more than 100 sensors. They both natively support the 1wire-weather station, along with counters, temperature, and humidity. But if the firmware does not recognize a 1wire device, you can't do anything with it! They have the ability to stream data (every minute, every 2 minutes, etc.) and you can also poll them for the current values. If you want historical data from the TEMP08, you have to read it regularly, but the LOG08 will store the data for you and you can read it later (so it is great for remote locations where you only attach a computer periodically). But even though the LOG08 recognizes the 1wire-weather station, it does not log wind information (it logs rainfall, temperature, humidity, etc.) The firmware in the TEMP08 and LOG08 are upgradeable, but you need to install a new chip to do so.</li><br /> <li>The Embedded Data Systems HA7Net is in my opinion the best. It has <i>three</i> 1wire busses (so you can support about 200 devices), and a very nice web interface (which is unique in that it also recognizes HTTPS, so you can use it securely on an open network). It understands a number of devices (so you can read temperature and humidity through built-in web calls), but it also gives you access to the low-level 1wire bus! This means that although it does not recognize the 1wire-weather system itself, you can easily access those devices through the "raw" interface. However, as with most of these systems, if you want historical trends (i.e., graphs), you have to read the data regularly. The firmware in the HA7Net is also field-upgradeable.</li></ul>
In my opinion, The HA7Net is the best system overall, giving a flexible and extensible interface. It is rugged and robust, has an ethernet/web interface, and the support staff responds reasonably quickly. The HA7Net is a nice bridge between plug-n-play and hacker systems, can mount on a wall or in DIN rails.

If you are working with a limited set of sensors (actually, most people will be fine with the set of sensors they support), then the TEMP08 or LOG08 are in my opinion the second best. They have a serial interface, and do a lot of work for you. They are more plug-n-play than the HA7Net, and the LOG08 will do data logging for you (so far, this is a unique feature).

If you are just monitoring a machine room, server rack, etc., then the Room Alert, TemPageR and EM1 are great. All have web interfaces, and both the Room Alerts and TemPageR have built in alarm software, and can mount in a 19" rack.

And if all you care about is a small number of temperature sensors and want to save money (and are willing to build them yourself), then the QK145 or VK011 are the cheapest things I have found.
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Post by Bwired »

Hi Dan,
Thank you for the great information and links. As I told before I'm thinking for a while now buying the Ha7net, DMB of this forum is interested as well. I am gonna read the manual and then will let you know if I'm ordering the HA7NET.
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Post by DMB »

Hello Daniel,

Why didn't I find your site earlier?
Great stuff.
Thanks also for the link of the new manual for the HA7NET.

I was thinking of removing misterhouse of my linux test machine but first I'll test your Perl code.

I don't like the perl programming language, but if I see what is possible in combination with the HA7NET (http://search.cpan.org/~dvklein/Hardwar ... /HA7Net.pm) I think I have to change my mind.

DMB
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Post by klone »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DMB</i>
<br />I don't like the perl programming language, but if I see what is possible in combination with the HA7NET (http://search.cpan.org/~dvklein/Hardwar ... /HA7Net.pm) I think I have to change my mind.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I just released a major version of thermd, and still have to integrate the changes back into the HA7Net.pm module, so if you want support for DS2450, DS2423, or DS2438, that will still be a week or two... Let me know if you need it sooner...
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