What modules to use for screens and sun shades?

Post by **Han** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:22 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Do we have interested forum members that have knowledge of electronics and board layout? (I do my own layouts and PCB "production" but I want others to get involved as this takes a lot of time). Somebody out there using ORCAD?? Who can produce PCB's?? A sparring partner to discuss and design the electronics with in detail?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Before starting the project I really want support for this discipline.
Anybody out there?

Han Alink

Post by **Niknik** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:46 pm

I'm willing to contribute some Euros, if it is required to make some PCB's on an online PCB manufacturer - that's all I can do regarding that "hardware" part.

Post by **Han** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:40 pm

Nobody seems to be interested in helping with the hardware. For me it is not interesting to do or redo functions (X10 units) I already have designed and build.
One function I already wanted to do was a LED controller. The idea was refreshed by the subject "Lumotech dimmable LED driver".
I think the solution with a X10 dimmer driving the LED controller is not the right solution. The current through the leds should be controlled; not the input voltage of the LED driver. I think the "small things (2)" Lennart noted is due to this way of use.

As the LED driver should have more steps than supported by the standard X10 dim/bright commands, I think using extended commands is necessary. Using these commands will also enable other functions like very slow dimming, blinking. I think it should also be possible to have 3 separate controllable LED drivers in one X10 unit. This would also enable a cheap "RGB moodlight system" (quoting Lennart).
If you (NikNik) have time to help with the firmware, I will send the assembler files of my standard dim/bright controller (by mail).

Han Alink

Post by **Niknik** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 2:45 pm

Han, I'm definitely interested on that.

Post by **MindBender** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 3:16 pm

I don't have any recent experience in PCB routing, so I can't help you there. But I can do the software for the unit: I have a C compiler for the 16Fxxx series and software development is my daily job. PCB manyfacturing shouldn't be much of a problem either: Profesionally made eurocard sized PCBs, double sided and silk screened won't cost more that 10Euro a piece when ordering 50 of them. I want at least 5 PCBs and I wouldn't mind taking 10.
Furthermore I'd be happy to discus some of the design topics with you, but I don't think this forum is a good medium for that. Just drop me a mail if you're still interested.

Post by **Han** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:09 pm

I have send the assembler files to nicnic.
There are some subjects which need input:
1) Setting the X10 address of the unit is now done as follows:
After powering the unit, you have to send address P1 to the unit. This puts the controller in Programming mode. The new address can now be send (within 30 seconds (I think)). Another solution would be a small pushbutton (accesseble through a small hole in the box) to s put the unit in programming mode.
2) Manual control of the unit. Should it be possible to control the unit mannualy? My units/code forsee in 1 or 2 buttons to set the unit on or off (short push) or dim/bright (keep the button pressed). Is local control needed for a LED controller?
3) The power supply. Should the power supply (12Volts) be part of the unit? Or should this be an external unit. Has also to do with the size and price of the unit.
4) What LED's should be driven by the unit.

Han Alink

Post by **Niknik** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:24 pm

1)Unless anyone really prefers the "push button" programming mode I guess the current method is acceptable. After all, it's something that most people have to do only once and forget about it.
2) manual control is always good to have, i think it should remain - as it allows "local" control even if a "master computer" is offline or not working.

3)If possible, I'd suggest leaving space for the power supply on board. If the unit would be "alone", then we would assemble it, so it wouldn't require an external power. BUT, if we were going to use several modules nearby next to eachother, we could assemble just the Power supply in 1 of them, and route the power to the others. (hope you guys understand what I tried to say!

4) as long as its has a pwm output, I think it can control virtually any leds (but you are the electronic expert, not me!)

Post by **Niknik** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:26 pm

Mindbender, I'd be happy to count with your help for the firmware part, please email me at carlosmmartins@gmail.com

Post by **Han** » Sat Jun 30, 2007 4:32 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">4) as long as its has a pwm output, I think it can control virtually any leds (but you are the electronic expert, not me!)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No; The pwm outputs drive the current sources (probably LM3405). These current sources have to be configured for the (max) amount of current and the voltage over the leds.

Han Alink

Post by **Han** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:46 pm

Hello,
Proudly presenting an X10 LED controller: [img]images/icon_paperclip.gif[/img] LED_C.JPG Sorry for the bad quality of the picture; probably has to do with the high brightness of the LED.
It is a one channel unit (drives 1 to 3 power Leds connected in series; with a maximm current of 1Amp).
On the picture it drives a blue Lumiled (350mA).
The unit uses standard X10 commands: ON, OFF, DIM, BRIGHT (smooth dimming). It also has local control by means of 2 buttons.

Han Alink

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:49 pm

That was quick.. now on to mass production?

Post by **Niknik** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:59 pm

Eheheh. There are still some "tweaking" we can do to the firmware.

For starters, what about defining our own "extended" command, for enhanced control?
Something like sending:
[light level][time to fade]

That would get rid of streams of "DIM/BRIGHTEN" filling up the power lines.

Post by **Han** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:38 pm

Hi,
I'm wondering how to continue.

As far as I can see now, it is possible to build a unit with 220Volt input and outputs for 3 groups of LEDS. Each group can contain up to 3 LEDs in series with a maximum current of about 350mA. The groups can be seperately controlled by X10 commands. Each group also has a local button for switching ON/OFF and DIM/BRIGHT.

So in total the unit can drive 9 power LEDs. This means a total output power of about 10 Watt. So the unit should contain a power supply of 12 Watt. Such a (switching) power supply takes about 62 x 32 x 23 mm (lxwxh)of space. This sets the height (30mm) and the width (65) for the box that can contain the unit.

The PCB will be 2-sided. The LED control electronics is mainly in SMD components. The X10 part contains the PIC, the switches and some other conventional electonic parts. Space is also needed for the input and output connectors. The needed PCB area will be about 62 x 90mm. This means that the total box size will be 125 x 62 x 30.

Estimated costs:
X10 parts: € 15,-
LED Control: € 8,-/channel: €24,-
Box: € 5,-
Power supply: € 25,-
PCB: € 8,-
Total cost: € 77,-

And as if that's not enough, the unit has to be assembled. As it contains SMD components, it is nearly impossible to do this by hand.

I would like to have reactions on the above:
- is this a usable unit (function)?
- is the size of the unit oke?
- is price/performance oke?
- if yes/yes/yes: who does want one or more units?
- who has ideas about or wants/can do the assembling

Looking forward to your reactions,

Han Alink

Post by **Niknik** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:08 pm

Just some thoughts:

Could this unit to be easily "transformed" to control regular lamps? (not assembling the led control and power, for example)
for me, I have the need for both led control, regular lamps, and halogen lamps.

Also, ideally, I think the pic "base" module should also have bidirectional capability - even if we could "not assemble" it for simpler applications where it wouldn't be required, to keep the costs down.

Of course, my situation is a bit different than most - as I'm starting from scratch and so would like to have as much 2-way modules as possible. For people already having most of their homes "x10'ized", they'll probably only need this to enhance some specific parts of their home.

In any case, I wouldn't mind getting one module at this stage to try it out and use as "basis" for further enhancements (like those "extended commands" for sending the fading time and the separate 3 channel control we talked about).

Carlos

Post by **MindBender** » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:49 am

Here's an url of the PCB manufacturer my neighbor uses frequently:
http://www.pcbcart.com
They're cheap and they can do nearly anything.