Program module

Post by **Bwired** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:24 pm

I hoped somehow there was a separate USB controller inside so I could remove it, but is a totally new design and fully integrated.
I hate those USB drivers as well!

Post by **JeroenE** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:58 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The PMIX35 seems to send a 'special signal' in order to get a module into programming mode. I haven't had the courage yet to connect my DSO to the mains power line to see what it looks like, but if there are any men more brave than me out there, I'd love to see the measurement results.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As far as I can tell (from the docs and looking at my computer screen) that 'special signal' is just another command. So instead of a command like "ON" the software will send the command "PRG" to put the module in a special mode. Then you have to go to the module and switch it a few times (depends a bit on which kind of module it is). That will make the module go in programming mode (e.g. the same as if you would have pressed the programming switch on the module) and the rest is the same as normal programming.

So it won't require special hardware except for the modules (the old ones don't have this capability in their own firmware). You do need a "programmer" which is capable of sending the "PRG" command; that's probably where the upgrading of the firmware comes into place. I don't have a CTX35 but I expect it won't send a PRG command if you tell it to. Perhaps someone who has one can try?

Post by **Bwired** » Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:16 pm

Right, It's mainly all about new firmware, the question is does it fit in the CTX35, I don't think so they probably used another proc or something like that.

Post by **MindBender** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:16 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JeroenE
 As far as I can tell (from the docs and looking at my computer screen) that 'special signal' is just another command. So instead of a command like "ON" the software will send the command "PRG" to put the module in a special mode.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have noticed the PRG command on the screen too, but all 16 possible X10 command codes have already been assigned to other functionality. So Eaton has either re-assigned an existing code to implement program functionality, making the protocol less compatible with other X10 products. Or they have invented something of their own, making it impossible to send this signal using regular X10 equipment. So I know about the possibilities and I used the term 'special signal' because I don't know which one of these possibilities is used, ending with a request for people to share theire measurement results (if any).<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Then you have to go to the module and switch it a few times (depends a bit on which kind of module it is). That will make the module go in programming mode (e.g. the same as if you would have pressed the programming switch on the module) and the rest is the same as normal programming.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I am well aware of the procedure, but that doesn't bring me any closer to finding out how it works internally.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So it won't require special hardware except for the modules (the old ones don't have this capability in their own firmware).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How do you know that? Please share the results if you have measured anything. Which existing X10 command is re-cycled by Eaton to trigger the program function? I'm pretty sure it's not an extended command or it would have shown up in the log as such. Or have they invented another signal to achieve this?<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You do need a "programmer" which is capable of sending the "PRG" command; that's probably where the upgrading of the firmware comes into place.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The first part is obvious. But my PMIX35 was already capable of producing the PRG command with it's original firmware. I noticed a firmware upgrade when the new PMIX35 was launched for the first time. Perhaps an update for the CTX35 supporting the PRG command is available too.

I'm also curious to know about the protocol used. Can anybody log the data traffic while the interface is being updated?<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't have a CTX35 but I expect it won't send a PRG command if you tell it to. Perhaps someone who has one can try?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Neither have I. I have a PMIX35 and a CM11. It would be interesting to see what the CM11 reports when the PMIX35 is transmitting a PRG command...

Post by **Pieterpaul** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:34 pm

From a document on the X10 site (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/xtdcode.pdf) it seems as though one normal (not extended) code is marked 'unused'. In other overviews I have seen this command being named PR2 (preset 2). I am not sure which of those overviews is more recent (the referred doc is from 2006), but maybe they use this code? Unfortunately, the CTX35 manual doesn't list this command (nor PR1) as supported, so it probably doesn't help anyway.

/PP

Post by **MindBender** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 2:38 pm

In my documentation it's specified as PR2 too, but if it's not used in slightly older documentation you may have pointed us into the right direction here. Do you know if the CM11 reports PR2 command codes? If so, I can easily verify your suggestion.

Post by **Pieterpaul** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:22 pm

Dunno, don't have a CM11.

Post by **JeroenE** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:47 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Or they have invented something of their own, making it impossible to send this signal using regular X10 equipment.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I suspect they used the "extended code" for this. That's the reason this command exists, AFAIK. I don't know about the 16th command being used already. The command list I have only shows 15 commands: All units off, All Lights on, On, Off, Dim, Bright, All lights off, Extended code, Hail request, Hail acknowledge, Pre-set dim, Extended data, Status=on, Status=off and Status request. So that leaves an additional command that might be used.

I haven't measured anything (I'm more a software guy anyway). Perhaps I should have phrased it in a different way: since both the PMIX35 and the HCB can send these commands (with the appropriate firmware) it doesn't seem that you need special hardware (eg things that make electrical connections, sends signals etc) since the existing hardware is capable of putting the required signals on the line.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm pretty sure it's not an extended command or it would have shown up in the log as such. Or have they invented another signal to achieve this?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It would not be that hard to show an extended code in the log as the PRG command.

Anyway it might be nice if someone can measure the line and see what gets send or try with a different module to see if it sees a command on the line (although, if that device does not recognise the 16th commadn it might not show it at all). But since I lack equipment or knowledge for both options I can't help you with that.

Post by **Peterpc** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:01 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pieterpaul
 From a document on the X10 site (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/xtdcode.pdf) it seems as though one normal (not extended) code is marked 'unused'. In other overviews I have seen this command being named PR2 (preset 2). I am not sure which of those overviews is more recent (the referred doc is from 2006), but maybe they use this code? Unfortunately, the CTX35 manual doesn't list this command (nor PR1) as supported, so it probably doesn't help anyway.

/PP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
you are right.

Post by **Pieterpaul** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:05 pm

Am I right about the PMIX using that code (PR2)? Or about the fact that it doesn't help with the CTX35? [:)]

Post by **Peterpc** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:34 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pieterpaul
 Am I right about the PMIX using that code (PR2)? Or about the fact that it doesn't help with the CTX35? [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
program 1 0 1 1 1

Post by **Pieterpaul** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:21 pm

Hmm, if I try to send PR2 to my CTX35, I think it sends a SRQ, because the modules (even older ones) reply with a status reply. Same goes for PRG. It looks like the CTX converts any command it doesn't know to the closest (ASCII) string it knows. If I send any silly command (something that the CTX35 is surely not supposed to understand), like 'AAP', the module replies with 'ALF'. Afraid this is not going to work. Does anyone know if the CM11 (or other X10 device) can send a PR2?

Post by **stefxx** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:48 pm

I did not buy the HCB after all, but decided to do first a test with a PMIX35 and HomeSeer. I wanted the PMIX35 anyway for easy programming and testing.

I can confirm that programming the SAIX12, DAIX12 and the ZAX12 has become very easy. Never remove the wall-switch again just to change an address or function However, to program the up- and down limits on the ZAX12 you still have to press the program button, but that is something you really should do only once.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments!

Post by **MindBender** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:31 pm

When releasing the program button (after having it pressed and held for a while), a DAIX12 with address A01 sends out:
A01
AHAK

When programming unit A01 to address B02 through the PMIX35, the traffic looks like this on the PMIX35 analyzer software:
PMIX35: A01
PMIX35: APRG
PMIX35: AHRQ
Module: A01
Module: AHAK
PMIX35: APRG
PMIX35: APRG
It's not entirely clear to me where the B02 comes in...

Seen form a CM11, this sequence looks like this:
CM11: A01
CM11: APD2
CM11: AHRQ
CM11: A01
CM11: AHAK
CM11: APD2
CM11: APD2
So we can be sure Xanura is re-using the PD2 command as a program command.

A side note: I did press the program button on the module to get it programmed. I will try flicking the switch a couple of times later, when I'm not holding bare live 240v wires together

.

This also means these modules can be programmed using a CM11 interface.

Post by **Pieterpaul** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:06 pm

Thanks Mindbender, great work. I wish I could call it good News, but because you figured out the 'cheap' CM11 can do stuff the 'expensive' CTX35 cannot do, I'm not so sure I am happy with the results [:(].
Anyway, good work and it'd be interesting to know if flicking the DAIX12 has the same result. And while you're at it: what does an old SAIX/DAIX do when you press the program button? I assume it does not send anything, is that correct?
As for the B02: could it be the PMIX sends the APRG only once and the B02 as the second sequence? Maybe that gets filtered out by the CM11 SW?

/PP