Unforgivable! Plugwise stealing data !!!

Post by **Dickr43** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:52 pm

Nicely put by both Henk and Chank! I will not let me stop using this technology just because they might do something with the collected information. I do agree with the TS that it is not the way how things should have been setup but I will give them the advantage of the doubt. I'm sure there will be a solution soon.

I also ordered some extra plugs with the 15% discount....

Post by **Edwin2008** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 5:30 pm

I agree fully on this BUT i think it is very silent out of plugwise and that is the part i'm worried about.
I thought about it to upscale it to organizations as radar etc but i think we have to give plugwise some more time but not endless. Again i would like plugwise to participate in this threat just to get it out of the "big brother is watching you" scene.

Post by **Esteban** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:21 pm

I think Plugwise should be given some more time to sort this out, the holidays being in between and all can slow things down. On the other hand, it shouldn't take 6 months either...

Firewalls and other stuff are a very nice solution for people like us but what about the 'normal' people? Plugwise made it very clear from the beginning that their products are focused on 'normal' people, not us. (Until recently we were just a nice 'side-effect' and possibly a nice promotion tool) Regular people don't have a clue what a 'packet', 'firewall' or port is. They plug the stuff in, install everything without reading anything and are oblivious to anything that goes on under the hood. Meanwhile more or less unasked their private data is being sent somewhere without them having knowledge of it and that is bad.

Government and private companies are two totally different animals. You don't like something the government is doing, you're in though luck and it'll be quite hard to make a change without a lot of effort. With private companies it is quite simple: People that don't like this whole sneaky/naughty setup from Plugwise should vote with their wallet and not buy anything else from them until they have fixed this.

Post by **Bwired** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:21 pm

I spoke to Plugwise again yesterday and yes they are working on a solution which will work for everybody. But as Plugwise is telling me it's not so easy because the anonymous data download is part of there business case. The first thing they will change for sure is a very clear pop-up on the website which is telling and explaining the anonymous data download. There will probably be other measures as well like a checkbox in the software etc, but this is still under discussion together with the final outcome. Plugwise is trying to do this in the next couple of months.

Post by **DJF3** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:43 pm

One solution could be a checkbox in the software that's not very easy to find (or a registry entry). In that case the techies like us can disable it and 'normal' users probably won't even see it. In that case the majority of their users will continue to upload their data.
A hack like this would work for me.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:31 pm

couple of months is 2 months in my eyes, and its now 2 months later.. still no updates.. o well, everybody i tell them about plugwise i standard tell them to block there firewall once installed.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **bas234** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:06 pm

Plugwise have changed their contractual terms and conditions!!!

They made it worse!! It is now mandatory that you allow the application to send your private data to Plugwise.
What is even worse. They now have a sanction too. If you in any way block the sending your private data to Plugwise, you are not entitled to new versions of the software.
And here's the strange thing. They claim that your data is anonymous. So in principle they should not be able to know that you block your own data. So appearantly it is not anonymous, otherwise they cannot enforce the sanction.

So two thins I infer from this:
<ul><li>the data you send is not anonymous</li>
<li>your private data is very valuable to them, so valuable that they put a sanction on it </li></ul>

This must be a crazy company that thinks they can act like this.
Spying on their own customers. They have lost me as a customer.

B As

Post by **Julian** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:51 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bas234
 Plugwise have changed their contractual terms and conditions!!!

They made it worse!! It is now mandatory that you allow the application to send your private data to Plugwise.
What is even worse. They now have a sanction too. If you in any way block the sending your private data to Plugwise, you are not entitled to new versions of the software.
And here's the strange thing. They claim that your data is anonymous. So in principle they should not be able to know that you block your own data. So appearantly it is not anonymous, otherwise they cannot enforce the sanction.

So two thins I infer from this:
<ul><li>the data you send is not anonymous</li>
<li>your private data is very valuable to them, so valuable that they put a sanction on it </li></ul>

This must be a crazy company that thinks they can act like this.
Spying on their own customers. They have lost me as a customer.

B As
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you sell your set, i'll buy it [:o)][:o)]

Post by **Henk** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:58 pm

..... the war is on !!

This response is the last thing you would expect but it makes it very clear and it should trigger an action by raising this issue to the Dutch organization guarding our privacy .....and informing other consumer organisation / media

It is related to the data collected from the on-line utility meters so far a hot discussion about the privacy.
Another issue who is the owner of this data the company providing the transport and usually providing the meter too or the company delivering the energy. In this case Plugwise will claim the data on the individual devices and getting in conflict of the other involved companies.

Another issue is that Plugwise can manipulate your hardware and even disable it ..... another legal issue .... because as a buyer you have the right to have a good working device. This issue will be the same for the increasing number of devices with on-line firmware upgrading. Example ... your MP3 player will be destroyed online after detecting your are playing more than 30% illegal music.

In the mean time may be poluting the collected data - switching plugs, give it funny names and even manipulating the collected data from 0 to millions of Kwh usage.

Henk

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 2:14 pm

*dutch*

6. Privacy en gebruik (persoons)gegevens
6.1. Plugwise gebruikt de door de Programmatuur verwerkte gegevens voor wetenschappelijke, statistische en historische doelein-den, en om haar producten en dienstverlening uit te breiden en te verbeteren. Zonder afzonderlijke toestemming zal Plugwise uitsluitend technische (verbruiks)gegevens verzamelen die niet te herleiden zijn tot natuurlijke personen in het huishouden en/of de onderneming van Gebruiker. Verwerking van persoonsgegevens zal steeds geschieden in overeenstemming met de Wet Bescherming Persoonsgegevens en het privacy beleid van Plugwise zoals gecommuniceerd op de Plugwise website (Pri-vacy & Cookie Policy Plugwise).
6.2. Indien Gebruiker het op welke wijze dan ook voor Plugwise onmogelijk maakt de in artikel 6.1 genoemde geanonimiseerde verbruiksdata van Gebruiker te ontvangen, dan voldoet Gebruiker daarmee niet de Licentievoorwaarden . Hierdoor wordt Ge-bruiker uitgesloten van het recht tot het ontvangen van updates van de Programmatuur.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **RDNZL** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:05 pm

Whats wrong with those domotica companies?

First we had one stealing the code of an open-source project and selling it for big bucks, and now this.

I'm a big fan of open-source, but I also don't mind to pay for decent technology (to stay away from awkward assurance claim problems caused by fire as the result of diy electronics for example)

But this is even worse, you pay for something, and then they also demand data from you as long as you use it... and if you don't give it, your stuck with old firmware and windows software, which might have defects.

I'm done with them, no new plugwise hardware for me anymore... unless they change their policy. It's also more clear now why they plan to change the firmware/protocol...

Regards,
Ron.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:22 pm

Thats why i'am sending out negative buying advice if i see a forum / person wants to buy it, and refer to this forum post.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Bwired** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:51 pm

They promised to make it more clear and a popup window should be appearing when somebody buys the plugwise modules. This popup should tell the costumer about the uploading of data etc.

Post by **Noel** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 5:52 pm

I was going to order some for a friend (20 plugs), but reading the above info makes me so mad!
Like RDNZL (and snelvuur) I'm done with them.
I will also give other who are interested in the plugs negative advice.

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Post by **Noel** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:12 pm

Not sure if it's already working.

URL removed (for now) as people might think that I want to kill Plugwise. (Pffff)

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