Poor reception...

Post by **MindBender** » Sun May 14, 2006 7:34 pm

I've installed nearly all of my X10 devices, but I have a problem: Not all devices are visible from the outlet in my offic. My house only has one phase so that's not the problem. In the kitchen I have accidentely found a 'magic outlet' that shows all units, but that's not a very practical place to put my server.

I've already been unplugging appliances, but that didn't help. My house isn't very big, so that can't be the problem. I haven't installed the filter after the meter yet; Can I expect some improvement after that? Is the only other sollution a signal repeater? Because that would be a real slowdown on the 'network'...

Post by **Consultant** » Sun May 14, 2006 11:36 pm

You must place inductor coils in line (in serie with the line or neutral) with signal absorbs like PC's, monitors, tv-sets etc. all stuff containing switched mode power supplies. The the signal level in your house will rise. The choke coils must withstand at least the maximum current (16A?) of the appliance and must have a inductor value of at least 20uH non saturating.

I hope this helps.

Post by **MindBender** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:25 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Consultant
 You must place inductor coils in line (in serie with the line or neutral) with signal absorbs like PC's, monitors, tv-sets etc. all stuff containing switched mode power supplies. The the signal level in your house will rise. The choke coils must withstand at least the maximum current (16A?) of the appliance and must have a inductor value of at least 20uH non saturating.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Wow! That's so not what I had hoped for! That means I've got to buy filters for every appliance in my house!

So basically the X10 system re-uses my electrical system for communication, but thereby makes it useless for any other use at the same time [:(!]. It would have been nice knowing that before I spend >2000 Euro and over a week installing that crap.

These filters are not only butt-ugly, I need over 25 of them: Nearly all modern appliances contain switch mode power supplies. They're much cheaper to manufacture than transformers. Besides that, electricity companies are lobbying for a EU ban on old-style power supplies because they're load is not eaqually spread along the entire 1/50Hz period.

Do the Xanura modules contain these filters before their outputs?

Post by **b_weijenberg** » Wed May 17, 2006 8:22 pm

Not every device needs a filter. To find the noise source unplug all devices, switch off halogene transformers. Then try to switch the X10 units on and off and switch on other devices until you get problems in switching the X10 devices.
A year ago I had a problem with a halogene transformer. I have put a line filter before to the transformer (ground connection of the filter at the transformer side!) and have no problems anymore. The line filter was used in a PC power supply.
I use about 10 X10 units within any switching problem.
Bert

Post by **Bwired** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:15 pm

Hi Guys
I have some of the problems you all mention too! I Have also a 3 phase installation which makes it more complex. For 3 phases it's necessary to install the XANURA FKX Phase coupler, which I don't have yet [:(]. I Have some outlets and actors I can't use. One outlet in my office where my computer is located and a light switch in my daughters bedroom I cant use for X10. Chapter 7 of the XANURA stappenplan http://www.bwired.nl/images/how/xanura_stappenplan.pdf Which is called "Meten en testen van de installatie" (sorry only in Dutch for now) is explaining very clearly what kind of problems might occur and what to do about it. Normally when a house is installed with X10/A10 devices testing, measurement and installing the devices to clean and optimize the power line is the first job to do. The complete power line needs to be clean for proper working. My power line network should be examined as well in the near future to see if all the X10/A10 signals are as strong as they should be and if there are devices such as the dishwasher which can interfere the x10 signal. Only then you can rely for 100% on the X10/A10 signals over your power line. For measuring and testing you need the Xanura PUX which I think is a very costly device. For boosting signals (if necessary) the Xanura SVX10 is available. For filtering the power-line you need the SFX40 (one for each phase). For filtering standalone devices the AFX2 filtering module is available. I could try drop a line to XANURA and ask them for a loan PUX which can be used for testing the devices in the homes of the XANURA die hards among this forum [?]

Pieter Knuvers
www.bwired.nl Online House in the netherlands. Domotica, Home Automation.

Post by **Han** » Thu May 18, 2006 12:05 am

Most times the computer interface is conected to the same wall outlet as the server, printer etc. Put the interface directly in the wall outlet and the power supplies of the other computer equipment by means of a power cord with outlets (verlengsnoer). In this way the attenuation of the output signal is less then when connecting it closer to all the other power supplies.

Han Alink

Post by **Bwired** » Thu May 18, 2006 12:47 am

In the Bwired house to get the best performance I have installed the computer interface in the fusebox cabinet.

Pieter Knuvers
www.bwired.nl Online House in the netherlands. Domotica, Home Automation.

Post by **Consultant** » Thu May 18, 2006 1:02 am

Agree with Han, powerline cords have an inductance of about 0.8uH/meter, so some "absorbers" have no negative infuence on signal attenuation. In general (my experience) is to plase 1 to 3 filter coils to increase the impedance of the appliance per house. Only "big" switch mode power supllies will attenuate the Xanura signal. So isolate these with a inductance.

Mindbender: A repeater doesn't delay the Xanura signal.
See for more info: http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery05.htm a good explaining story about phasecouplers/repeaters.

I hope this helps.

Post by **b_weijenberg** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:25 am

A simple but efficient phase coupler:

....18uH...0,1uF.1A...18nH...0,1uF.1A...18nH...0,1uF.1A...
----/\/\/\---||--===--/\/\/\---||--===--/\/\/\---||--===--
..|..................|.................|.................|
..R..................S.................T.................R
18uH inductor
0.1uF X1 capacitor. Type X1 is necessary for the high AC voltage!!
1A fuse

RST = phase

Mount this phase coupler between the main fuse and the circuit breakers.

Bert

Post by **MindBender** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:27 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bwired
I could try drop a line to XANURA and ask them for a loan PUX which can be used for testing the devices in the homes of the XANURA die hards among this forum [?]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That would be nice. After all, you brought them my business. Though I think I do well with an oscilloscope too.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Han
 Most times the computer interface is conected to the same wall outlet as the server, printer etc. Put the interface directly in the wall outlet and the power supplies of the other computer equipment by means of a power cord with outlets (verlengsnoer). In this way the attenuation of the output signal is less then when connecting it closer to all the other power supplies.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I would expect the computer interface to have a filter inside to shield the load on it's own outlet. As a matter of fact: I expect that form all X10 modules...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Bwired
 In the Bwired house to get the best performance I have installed the computer interface in the fusebox cabinet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's a good suggestion, because at that location, at the center of the star-network, the distances to the other nodes are as short as possible. And there are no heavy absorbers around there.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Consultant
 Agree with Han, powerline cords have an inductance of about 0.8uH/meter, so some "absorbers" have no negative infuence on signal attenuation. In general (my experience) is to plase 1 to 3 filter coils to increase the impedance of the appliance per house. Only "big" switch mode power supllies will attenuate the Xanura signal. So isolate these with a inductance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So with the Xanura SFX40 filter installed in my fusebox I should get a big improvement? I've been told the electricity meter is a big absorber too.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Consultant
Mindbender: A repeater doesn't delay the Xanura signal.
See for more info: http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery05.htm a good explaining story about phasecouplers/repeaters.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Multi-phase repeaters don't. But single phase repeaters do.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by b_weijenberg
 A simple but efficient phase coupler:
....18uH...0,1uF.1A...18nH...0,1uF.1A...18nH...0,1uF.1A...
----/\/\/\---||--===--/\/\/\---||--===--/\/\/\---||--===--
..|..................|.................|.................|
..R..................S.................T.................R
18uH inductor
0.1uF X1 capacitor. Type X1 is necessary for the high AC voltage!!
1A fuse

RST = phase

Mount this phase coupler between the main fuse and the circuit breakers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is a passive phase coupler, but it only works with X10 modules that take the other two phases into account while transmitting and receiving. In other words, they don't only use their own phases zero corssings (0 & 180 degrees), but the other phases' zero crossings as well (60, 120, 240 & 300 degrees) Xanura and Marmitek modules don't do that, so this passive coupler won't work for them.