Z-Wave heating/cooling solution (thermostat)?

Post by **pvdspek** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 4:12 am

Hi all,

I'm looking for a Z-wave solution to control both my Nefit Ecomline HR (gas)heating kettle, as well as a (water) floor-heating system with 3 zones and a new to buy airconditioning (split)unit.

As far as controlling the kettle and the floor heating system, I've found out that both Danfoss (CF2) and Honeywell (HCE80) are selling systems using their own proprietary (closed) Z-wave implementations, but none of which can be controlled by anything else than their own thermostats.

The Horstmann ThermoPlus AS2 RF is the only European Z-wave thermostat I've come across, but I wouldn't know how to connect it to an airco unit or floor heating system and it's very unclear to me wheather it can be controlled by a Z-wave controller like Homeseer.

So far I'm just using 4 Merten Connect 507900 dimmers with 3 Duewi 05443 Z-Wave-Wandsender and I'm still looking for a suitable control system I can put up on the wall.
I've been looking at the Electronic Housekeeper system for more than a year now, but up till now it's not available outside Danmark, Germany or the UK.
Looking at their website, I'm very interested in the BeNext system,
but unfortunately it's not available for consumers yet.

So all in all, does someone know of a solution which lets me control both my heating/cooling system?
And which system can be recommended to control this all (and the lights as well), by using a nice display on the wall?

Thanks,
Pepijn.

Post by **bartg** » Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:50 pm

Hi Pepijn,

I am have the same challange. I just want a themostat which can be controlled (overridden) by homeseer. Please let us know if you find a working solution.

Regards,
Bart

Post by **mstacey** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:45 am

Hi,

I've the same problem. From what I've learned, the Horstmann AS2 RF uses ZWave to communicate between the theromstat and the boiler control, it's a closed loop system so there isn't a way to adjust the temperature or switch on or off the boiler from a third party zwave system.

I'm neither electrically inclined nor familiar with plumbing systems, but I'm wondering if something along the following lines might work.

There's a new temperature sensor available from Everspring, not sure where it can be purchased from yet:

http://www.everspring.com/Archive/Produ ... 090817.pdf

Could a Qees Power switch (http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3088) be wired in to the circuit to the boiler? It's a 16Amp switch which should be able to take any load?

Then, could a home control system be configured to trigger scenes based on events, an event being the temperature reported by the sensor, and the action being to switch on or off the boiler. Time based events would be available too.

On top of that, I'd add the danfoss TRV to my radiators to control them on a room by room basis, and another Qees Power switch to control the Immersion, assuming the 16A capacity is enough for the load.

It's a bit cobbled together, but in the absense of an integrated home heating control system for Europe, could this achieve the same effect? When a system does become available, the already purchased systems could be reused elsewhere?

Am I way off here? Would this be a runner?

thanks

Post by **Stefan Mensink** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:16 am

The documentation for the Horstmann device says:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The receiver and AS2-RF use Z-wave technology to communicate, this means it can be used as a stand alone item or added to an existing Zwave installation.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Of course, if there is no software to support it, adding it to your Z-Wave setup would be rather useless. Also, a quick google search doesn't reveal any documentation of how to program anything for it. Maybe in time support will show up in an existing product.

Post by **pvdspek** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:21 pm

Last week I've had a chat with the people from BeNext (benext.nl) at the Dutch 'Domotica en Slim wonen' fair.
They're working on a system that can control a heating system, among many other functions.
The first fase of the product will support the use of radiator thermostats only, but for the near future boiler control is planned as well. The only thing is that many Dutch are using Nefit boilers, which use a closed proprietary communication protocol for their modulation functions. This means controlling the (Nefit) boilers will be limited to an on/off function (full burn/no burn) only.

Post by **agerritsen** » Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:29 pm

This BeNext company where they showing real products (at the Dutch 'Domotica en Slim wonen') on the fair or only plans what they want to make?

Post by **Foxtastic** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:16 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mstacey
 Could a Qees Power switch (http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3088) be wired in to the circuit to the boiler? It's a 16Amp switch which should be able to take any load?

Then, could a home control system be configured to trigger scenes based on events, an event being the temperature reported by the sensor, and the action being to switch on or off the boiler. Time based events would be available too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">My guess would be that you would need a relay switch. A normal switch such as the Qees power wouldn't work

Post by **pvdspek** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 1:13 am

Why wouldn't it work?
It's just a plain simple connect/disconnect with almost no amps.

In my opinion mstacey's idea could work out just fine.

It's just a shame many home automation companies are showing off their solutions naming heating control one of the main advantages of a home automation system, while in fact the only product they can come up with is the Danfoss radiator thermostat, which only offers limited functionality [:(]

Post by **Foxtastic** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:52 am

you'll have to relay 24v to the boiler. Not switch 220v (like the qees power does). So in my opinion you'll need a relay to activate or deactivate the boiler. But I ain't no expert.

Post by **pvdspek** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 12:58 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Foxtastic
 you'll have to relay 24v to the boiler. Not switch 220v (like the qees power does). So in my opinion you'll need a relay to activate or deactivate the boiler. But I ain't no expert.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Okay, but then a Z-Wave relay like the ones being used for motorised screens would work.
If you have a look at the model from Duewi you can see in the second example at page 2 of the manual that a separate power source can be switched: http://www.duewi.de/download.php?bid=5856&lid=3

Post by **EzHome** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:37 pm

@Pepijn,

The Duwi option doesn't work (well it does but not for a long time) after 2 minutes it cuts the power from the output.

This device is meant for closing doors, gates, blinds which have an end switch.
The 2 minutes are long enough to close or open it.

About Horstmann, the z-wave part in the products on the market now is used for comm. between the Thermostat and controller part and can't communicate with an other z-wave controller (there also is a Danfoss product used for floor heating what can't be included into a domestic network, the reason they use z-wave technique is because of it's reliability and costs of it)

We are on speaking terms with our partners (Danfoss and Horstmann) and both will come with a product that can be controlled in a domestic z-wave network but it's just not finished.

The ones who will bring it up first is Danfoss and later at the end of 2010 the Horstmann will be released.

Let's make z-wave EZ

Post by **LostDreamer** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 3:47 pm

I bought a Velleman VM110 for this.
It has 8x 25v relay switches (+ 2 analogue in, 2x out, 6 dig. in)
and has an API for easy integration.

Just connect 2 wires to your heater (I connected them to my old thermostat), When you close the relay, the heating starts.

todo:
Add a few Danfoss TRV for controlling individual rooms.

Lostdreamer

Post by **mstacey** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:20 pm

rather than needing a relay switch to the boiler, I was thinking of adding the qees power as a circuit breaker in the circuit before the timer switch that I have installed at the moment. I could leave the timer switch always on, and the circuit breaker as a normal 240v breaker that would allow the timer switch to operate the boiler. I thought I could use the same principle with the immersion, before the on/off/bath/sink switch, it could interrupt the power.

But maybe this is where my knowledge of electrical circuits fall down and this is not what I expected might happen. LostDreamer's solution seems to be more straightforward, and is a properly working solution!

Mark

Post by **pvdspek** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:08 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by agerritsen
 This BeNext company where they showing real products (at the Dutch 'Domotica en Slim wonen') on the fair or only plans what they want to make?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">They were showing the products they're working on and compatible components from other manufacturers.

Post by **pvdspek** » Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:28 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ezHome
 @Pepijn,
The Duwi option doesn't work (well it does but not for a long time) after 2 minutes it cuts the power from the output.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">But if the temperature is still low after 2 minutes, you could (theoretically) restart the event that actives the relay.<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This device is meant for closing doors, gates, blinds which have an end switch.
The 2 minutes are long enough to close or open it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know, but you can always be creative [:)]<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">About Horstmann, the z-wave part in the products on the market now is used for comm. between the Thermostat and controller part and can't communicate with an other z-wave controller (there also is a Danfoss product used for floor heating what can't be included into a domestic network, the reason they use z-wave technique is because of it's reliability and costs of it)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This Danfoss floor heating product is the CF2 system, right?<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We are on speaking terms with our partners (Danfoss and Horstmann) and both will come with a product that can be controlled in a domestic z-wave network but it's just not finished.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's about time...
What I'd love to see is the ability to control the Danfoss CF2 system from a Z-Wave gateway. The product already has the ability to control both the boiler and the floor heating system, and also works with Z-Wave.The only whish left would then be Nefit compatibility and a way to control the airconditioning system.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The ones who will bring it up first is Danfoss and later at the end of 2010 the Horstmann will be released.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Do you have any idea what kind of products will they be introducing? Radiator thermostats, room thermostats or floor heating systems?