Unforgivable! Plugwise stealing data !!!

Post by **Snelvuur** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:24 pm

so there is no way to update the firmware without sending data to the portal? In case i want to go all linux..

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Digit** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:59 pm

Earlier this day i had a conversation with Reinder.
Let's say we have different priorities. I've decided to let it rest for a while; firewall is set, no worries for the time being. The points made in this thread must be clear to Plugwise by now, so now it's time for Plugwise to come with a clear answer/solution to this situation.

Post by **Noel** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:30 am

Digit. How much are they paying you to let it rest?

Post by **Digit** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:31 am

I am getting sleepless nights and a headache.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:07 am

she was that good huh?

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **DJF3** » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:16 pm

Of all the people I showed this solution, 5 decided not to order the Home Basic kit because they don't like this. Why?
- The checkbox "I allow my information to be send to Plugwise" only refers to the personal information but the application doesn't even ask you about the other data being send. (They're real users who don't know about firewalls etc.)
A solution for them would be a 2nd checkbox that says "Allow usage data to be send to Plugwise anonymously" which you can check or uncheck <i>yourself</i>.
Cheers
DJ

Post by **Henk** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:49 pm

The new generation of E-metering - (replacing all electricity/gas meter in Holland with an online unit) has the same privacy issues and a lot of discussion is going on. Based on this data - it may give an indication if the owner is on holiday so generating valuable data for criminal organisations. Also home owner will not have any control to turn off the data like a specific setting of the user firewall.

So collection of even more detailed data it may be interested for appliance vendor to replace household equipment, Government may get an indication of the number op people living in the house and may reduce the wellfare contribution and so on. Also some questions marks about the real value of this data ... a large portion will be unreliable / misleading.

In the Voorwaarden of Plugwise - it is stated that the data collection is all within the guidelines of the Wet voor Persoonsregistratie ... but the intention of this law is to ask clearly of user permission and not hiding it in some small "Voorwaarden" prints.

So get a vinkable box requesting for this collection of data and in case of an update of the Source software just send a Email if the user allow his/her Email adres.

It may help if Plugwise will offer for each year of datacollection in return a free plug......

Henk

Post by **Digit** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:37 pm

In my case an extra Circle would not help.
What might help, is knowing who has access to the data or who will be granted access to it in the future.
For me it's a matter of principle. Maybe, if i would know what 'good causes' the data is going to be used for (and i can judge what is good and what isn't), i would participate! But not this way.
As Henk pointed out, i think it's fair to assume that there are numerous "3rd party's" dying to get a hold of the information gathered by Plugwise.
I listened to an interview with Jacob Konhstamm of the CBP a few days ago. I learned that in general, privacy matters are not a real issue among the Dutch population.
It sure looks like that's true, since apparently we have to pull up a firewall to prevent information leaking out that we don't want to.
That's the current state, for more than 2 weeks now. This cannot go on much longer.
I think it is time for Plugwise to make clear what their plans are, so everybody knows what to expect and how to deal with it.

PS.
The link to their Privacy Policy is dead... strange?

Post by **DJF3** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:04 am

Just removed the access list in my router to see if there's a potential update for software OR firmware and what happens?

<b>>60Mb of unencrypted USAGE data is send to portal.plugwise.com!</b>

This includes my license code, IP address, plug descriptions, groups, schedules, etc.

I'm seriously getting pissed off. This should be fixed very soon!
Suggested fix:
-Checkbox in the software
-Alternative method to update the Source software (available) AND Circle firmware (not available?) so we can block portal.plugwise.com
-Have the Source update the Circle firmware

They really don't care about your access list because the second you remove it all data is being send anyway.

I have put my Circle expansion on hold both at home and in our office (customer demo facilities)

Cheers
DJ

Post by **Andro** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:03 pm

I was thinking of buying plugwise, but after reading the above posts I am thinking I'll hold off for a while. It's the whole procedure and how you guys found it out that it was uploading. I agree that if they would have made it very clear in the beginning that it was uploading it might not have been a problem. At least a specific 'no' to upload would have been sufficient. I guess there was too much smoke on what they are doing.

I also saw a reference to the utility smart meters. I think this product has a different level of privacy then the utiltiy meters. Plugwise is a level deeper than the Utility meter and far more interesting data. As far as I understand the utility smart meters will upload a reading once a day or even less (but 15 min readings are possible!!, but problematic storing because of the volume and data traffic). We domotica geeks know that this doesn't really tell much about a home. Also the smart meters are far more regulated because it is 'sensitive' data. I fear there will be no consumer organisation defending your rights with plugwise.

When someone says the data will be used for datamining the hairs in the back of my neck stand up. Datamining does not have a good name in The Netherlands and they already know what you eat (AH bonus), what you purchase (Airmiles) and now what your devices use and how much tv you watch? Just think of the possibilities... and if we can, a dataminer will.

Ok.. this is off course worst case and I am sure plugwise has good intentions. But still.. if this was an Essent, Eneco or Nuon product the consumer organisation would be totally over them for privacy violation.

Sooo.. for me at this moment, no plugwise. Besides, there are so many other wishes on my domotica list.

Post by **Lempens** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:21 pm

I was also thinking about buying Plugwise this month because of the 10% refund.

But with above reactions I will wait until there is a working, and stable version. I don't want my data to be stolen, when I update to a newer version.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:37 pm

I've put my plugwise expansion on hold, not sending any more money to bigbrother. Fix it, period.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **Rene** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:53 pm

Same goes for me. I already have 19 plugs and was about to order an additional extension set. I will hold my purchase until Plugwise makes clear how they will cope with our complaints.

Rene.

Post by **Edwin2008** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:08 pm

Same here. The only sensible thing would be a decent reaction from plugwise about what there next step will be.

Post by **Snelvuur** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:20 pm

you mean, when will it be fixed? We know what the next step should be..

// Erik (binkey.nl)