Unforgivable! Plugwise stealing data !!!

Post by **Noel** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:09 pm

I've just given away my plugs to a "good" friend who did not mind having his data used.

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Post by **Dickr43** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:15 pm

I've just ordered new plugs. I do understand why Plugwise needs the data in order to try and make a profit. I also do not believe that there is any harm in the way they are collecting the data. It is just information on powerusage, even if it would relate back to my person, what should I worry for? Many of you (us) are populating your websites or fora with much more detailed information than Plugwise is collecting.

I do however think that they should have informed their buyers before and on a more clear manner than they have done. On that part I agree with everyone. I hope that Plugwise will survive and deliver us much more of this fine technology!

Post by **Alexander** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 1:29 pm

I would like to know how Plugwise would deal with the problem that businesses do use a firewall for outgoing traffic and block everything the business don't use to do business.

Post by **Rene** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 2:13 pm

I agree fully with dickr43.

Rene.

Post by **Esteban** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:58 pm

The problem is, I think, not so much what data is collected here, but the way it is done.

A company that isn't transparent with its clients and future clients only has itself to blame if things go sour... Regardless of the theoretical price with or without this datasending.

If this datamining is so harmless and good for the world how come it's mentioned nowhere <u>clearly</u> as the great thing about the plugwise solution. Not on the website, not on BNR, not in this article:

I'm not saying that Plugwise is evil and going to exploit the data. I'm saying that they are not honest towards their clients and/or potential clients (mostly non tech-people) about how they do business.

As for myself (aka my personal opinion on this matter), I'm glad Digit made everyone aware of this practice. It allowed me to not buy Plugwise and make an informed decision before buying... not while installing the drivers and software. I just don't condone these types of practices in principle. Maybe this time it's benign, next time, with another company, it's maybe not. When I buy things I don't want to have to security check them first before use... A device should obey and listen to just one person, and that person would be me, the person who owns it. I'm not looking to buy a license, I'm looking to buy a device and own it.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what the new update adds to the game.

Esteban

Post by **Henk** » Fri Mar 13, 2009 5:06 pm

My statement of war is may be not correct in my last note some over reaction but i have a strong feeling of getting into a blackmail situation with Plugwise like if you dont want to play our game you will not support you..and your device may not operate anymore.
I think Plugwise is playing a fair game and can be honest .. but it is a small step to modify the plug firmware so after some time it will disable itself until it is getting online and dumping the collected data.

Anonymous forget it it is easy to collect the IP address and funny yesterday I did some online shopping and on the bill together with my name and address my unique IP number showed up .. likely organisation of IDEAL are collecting private information and linking it to the collected IP number just as an extra security check and may sell it.

In case you have the Plugwise software installed why not collecting other data in your PC it is easy to do and who will control it.

In case the Plugwise source software is checking if their products is being used with another competitive product and may be disable the Plugwise hardware just a violation of their license agreement of course I will emphasise it again Plugwise will never do this

My major point is to protect our privacy and you may say those companies and our government will never abuse this data but it may change you will never know . in the last world war a lot of people were saved because they could destroyed the paper information on registration of people. Today it is not possible anymore to destroy the collecting systems and linking information together is so easy and can generate very powerful information.

So collection some usage information of electrical appliances will it be harmful ? of course not only when they can detect if your on holiday and inform burglars about this opportunity. Government may detect that you are not living alone in your home and decrease your pension payment you may receive a lot of junk mail of replacing your old refrigerator .. and many more examples are possible how to misuse this data but again it will never happen.

So on this forum lets raise this concern about our privacy being threatening in a serious way and stop it before it is too late because more companies are getting into the home and wanted to collect information on your lifestyle.

The E-metering is another example .. why is there a need to collect every 15 minutes your meter readings may be once a day and if so it should be well protected and an independent organisation should review and authorized it.

Television sets will be on IP so Philips will start soon collecting data on the channel selection and sell it do you like it when companies knows you are watching a ****o 1) channel for 24 hours a day. In case there is a sexual crime in your neighbourhood may be you have to explain something to the Police organisation.

If you dont have an IP television it will be integrated in your digital cable modem and the Ziggo / UPS will collect this information.

More companies will be interested to collect private usage information like your heating device, household equipment, gaming equipment and personal computer

So this is some background on what the future will be .. it will Big Brother is watching you and since George Orwell wrote in 1948 the book 1984 a lot of it has been implemented so be sensitive and raising hell in case the next chapter may be implemented .. if not a revision will be needed on the book called 2084

Henk

1) funny censoring ****o = p-o-r-n-o or erotic channel temptation to see if other words will be **** too

Post by **r_255** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:07 am

It just not done, excesive registration is not wanted and for me the main reasson i did not bought them.

And It was due to the perfect organised registration of religion here in holland that we lost more jewish population than every other country.

Post by **Jeroen Bartels** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:21 am

OMG, now we also include 2nd WW.
Guys, I agree that it's not ok for plugwise to steal data from us and they definitely should have informed their clients better. But I think we are blowing this problem way out of proportions. If you totally disagree with plugwise's businessplan and you regret to ever have bought the system, simply sell your plugs in de 'for sale' section.
You should be able to get a good price for it.
Personally Plugwise is still on my wishlist and I will probably use the new discount code.

Post by **Digit** » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:34 pm

Yes, i disagree with their business plan. Because it's not complete, there are things missing.
Things like being honest to your customers of what you do, believing in your own business plan.
Believing that it won't harm your business if customers know what's happening before they decide to buy.

And i do not regret buying the system, so i don't want to sell it either; that would be to easy, as if i don't care.
Today it's Plugwise. Tomorrow it's ... well, just reread Henk's last post.
And the only choice we have is: live with it or just don't use it?
Yeah, right; soon that choice will be made for us, if we behave like that. Nothing to choose anymore.
If we don't make clear we disagree and we don't make an issue of it, we're lost for sure.

Post by **r_255** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:49 am

Sorry Jaybee,

But refering to ww2 incase of what harm registration can do never ever can be out of proportions. They are hard and simple
facts you can't deny. If you have better examples about what harm registration can do please feel free.

PS: i guess people did not see much harm in registration of religion then, can not do much harm must have been what they thaught.

Post by **Henk** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:36 am

The plugwise case is just an extension on the topic of smart metering in Holland - this is causing a lot of discussion about privacy and need to do the national implementation ..... if interested see the following links:

http://www.vrijbit.nl/dossier/dossier-energiemeter

http://www.wijvertrouwenslimmemetersniet.nl/

http://weblogs3.nrc.nl/klaver/2009/02/1 ... e-privacy/

http://www.consumentenbond.nl/actueel/n ... eters_EVRM

http://www.consumentenbond.nl/morello-b ... nergi1.pdf

Henk

Post by **Reinder** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:01 am

No Henk, that is not true. There is a significant difference between the smart meter and Plugwise. For Plugwise it is NOT possible to trace personal data! No one is aware of that, only when you explicitly give permission of sending you personal data. Standard your PERSONAL DATA IS NOT SEND! That is just exactly the difference between the discussion about the smart meter and global data. The data Plugwise gets is anonymous, data from the smart meter is personalised. Plugwise is against data from the personalised smart meter. When and why your devices are on or of is not noticed by Plugwise.
How much a refrigerator is consuming electricity is noticed but NOT FROM WHO OR WHERE! Millions of data makes it possible to count the average electricity consumptions of a refrigerator, not individual cases. With these numbers Plugwise can calculate the average consumption of, by example, a refrigerator, so you can compare it with you own (benchmarking).

So bottom line:
The data Plugwise gets is anonymous, PERSONAL DATA IS NOT SEND!

Post by **r_255** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:45 am

@Reinder,
How dificult is it to connect the personal registration info and the info about the meter that is sended?

The plugwise story does not sound complete,as anonynous data is kind of worthless in this world. It does not match the "its in our bussines model"

Non anonynous information makes them a lot more worth, and who garantuees me that it stays that way after they sold plugwise to GE of even Google?

I guess no one, not even plugwise itself can give us these guarantees.

Post by **Reinder** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:50 am

@ R_255
The facts are that the data is anonymous.

The terms from Plugwise protects you. They are very clear: "6.1. Plugwise gebruikt de door de Programmatuur verwerkte gegevens voor wetenschappelijke, statistische en historische doelein-den, en om haar producten en dienstverlening uit te breiden en te verbeteren. Zonder afzonderlijke toestemming zal Plugwise uitsluitend technische (verbruiks)gegevens verzamelen die niet te herleiden zijn tot natuurlijke personen in het huishouden en/of de onderneming van Gebruiker. Verwerking van persoonsgegevens zal steeds geschieden in overeenstemming met de Wet Bescherming Persoonsgegevens en het privacy beleid van Plugwise zoals gecommuniceerd op de Plugwise website (Pri-vacy & Cookie Policy Plugwise)."

So you have the guarantees!

Post by **Digit** » Sun Mar 15, 2009 12:22 pm

No guarantees. From that same document:

Deze privacy en cookie policy kan eenzijdig door Plugwise worden gewijzigd. Wijzigingen treden in werking op de datum vermeld op de bekendmaking. Wij adviseren u regelmatig deze privacy en cookie policy na te lezen op eventuele wijzigingen.