Strange X10 problem

Post by **RdP** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 11:33 pm

Hi,

Since a couple of week I have a strange X10 problem.

I have four switches next to each other. 3 of them are Marmitek LW11 dimmer modules and 1 is a SW10. All 4 switches doesn't react on any X10 command, if a lamp which is on the other side of my living room is switched off. If this lamp is on all 4 off them react as normal on X10 commands.
All of them (including the lamp) are on the same power group)

In the past this was working without a problem, and I cannot think of anything which has been changed when this problem was introduced.

I have the idea that it has something to do with signal strengt, because my X10 meter gives an X10 signal error when the lamp is of and around 100mv signal when the lamp is on.

All comments are welcome,

RdP

Post by **Bwired** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:11 am

What kind of lamp is it and what is the power supply?

Post by **Dowser** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:10 am

How do they react if you remove the plug to the lamp instead of just turning it off?

//Markus

Post by **RdP** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:06 am

It's a 12 volt (IKEA) lamp, with power supply. And if I remove the plug the problem is the same as turning of the switch of the lamp......

/RdP

Post by **bierdopje** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:05 am

So if you turn the lamp on, the problem disappears?

I have some problems too with an Ikea lamp. Do you have the lamp with the touch dimmer? I have two of them above the dinner table and they go on and of (disco) when there is X10 communication.

Post by **Bwired** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:10 am

You probably need a filter, is it a Halogen lamp?
Try to move the lamp to another outlet, same result?

Post by **RdP** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am

The problem is not the Ikea lamp (NO halogen). Remember when it's not on and connected I have a problem. The question is what does this lamp do with the X10 signal when it's turned on ?!?!?
I'm not at home so I will put it in another outlet this evening.....

And where should I put the filter ??

/Rien

Post by **Dowser** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:29 pm

Hmm, I don't follow you.

*You do not have the problem with the lamp connected (duh!) and turned on.
*You do have the problem with the lamp connected and turned off.
*You do have the problem with the lamp disconnected?

And, IKEA does have a lot of 12V lamps, I have a few of them without any problems. Can you find out the name of it?

//Markus

Post by **RdP** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:44 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dowser
 Hmm, I don't follow you.

*You do not have the problem with the lamp connected (duh!) and turned on.
*You do have the problem with the lamp connected and turned off.
*You do have the problem with the lamp disconnected?

And, IKEA does have a lot of 12V lamps, I have a few of them without any problems. Can you find out the name of it?

//Markus<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Markus,

See the picture of the lamp. Again the lamp is not the problem, but it looks like the lamp boosts the X10 signal when it's turned on. And yes I agree, in most cases a lamp or other device is causing problems when it's connected and turned on, but in my case it's the other way around [B)]
The name of the lamp is STRANNE.

Thanks in advance,
Rien

Post by **Jfn** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:03 pm

Did you try connecting a normal lightbulb to the outlet instead of the IKEA 12V lamp? What happens then?

It would be interesting to learn what the difference in behaviour is when connecting a 'real' load (the lighbulb) versus an 'imaginary' load (the 12V IKEA lamp)

Try measuring the amount of X10 signal with both options (I believe you measured 100mV with the IKEA lamp connected).

If the amount of signal varies between both options, I am starting to think about a network impedance problem. In that case, try fitting a X10 netfilter in you cupboard (http://xanurahome-installateur.test2.bi ... -SFX40.jpg. Maybe this will solve your problems.

But, maybe before installing a central netfilter, first try disconnecting all equipment from the outlets (do not forget the central heating installation) and reconnect them one-by-one. Maybe it is not the outside world that is screwing things up, but a piece of equipment in your own house. In this case a filter in the cupboard is not needed, but a filter for the particular piece of equipment is (http://xanurahome-installateur.test2.bi ... l_AFX2.pdf

Als het niet kapot is, niet repareren!

Post by **RdP** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:22 pm

Another lightbult (normal one, without tranformator) or even a toaster has the same result as when the IKEA lamp is off or not connected. So the IKEA lamp does something magic to the X10 signal. I tried disconnecting all of the equipment of the same power group, without any result. I don't see why a filter should help, because this is only helpfull when a device is disturbing the X10 signal, in my case this not the case.

/RdP

Post by **Snelvuur** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:44 pm

What are you using for sending the signals? CM11/Ctx35 or just a RF adapter?

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **RdP** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:53 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snelvuur
 What are you using for sending the signals? CM11/Ctx35 or just a RF adapter?

// Erik (binkey.nl)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">CM11.....

Post by **Snelvuur** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:59 pm

i wonder if there would be any difference if you where to use a ctx35.. since they always say that the ctx35 should be better.

// Erik (binkey.nl)

Post by **MindBender** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:51 pm

Ok, so if I understand correctly your problem only occurs when the lamp is connected but not switched on, right?

First check what kind of transformer we're talking about here: It may be an old fashioned linear transformer, or it may be a switch-mode power supply. The first one has a substantially heavier mass. My guess is that we're dealing with a switch-mode power supply here. These are notorious for disturbing power line signals, especially when they're not built very well (read: cheaply).

Another down side of these power supplies is that they behave differently under different loads becuase they match their switching frequency in oder to regulate the output voltage stable: A higher load usually needs a higher frequency in order to use the internal transformer more intensively. In your case this means that when your lamp is not switched on, but the power supply is still plugged in, the load is very low. Therefore the switching frequency is very low too and it may very well intefere with the X10 signals on you mains.

So the solution for you is probably to get a better switch-mode power supply, or better; a ring-core transformer, at your local DIY store and for the rest of us to avoid Ikea electronics

(which I have been doing for 35 year now)

You may find this post interesting too:
http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=397