Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Forum about Xanura, Eaton Holec and Marmitek and other brand X10 and A10 devices.
eliket
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

Hi all,

Recently I bought the Marmitek total guard security system. I quickly started to get very enthousiastic about the domotica features it offered so I bought a buch of extra lamp-modules, dimmers, etc.

I now use the home control software and a remote to operate everything.

Within two weeks my garden will be completely redesigned. Everything goes out, and large tiles (100x100) and artificial grass will come in place. I also want to create a light-plan, containing ground-spots (in the tiles) and regular lamps (on the walls of surrounding barns)
Here's a sketch of what will be the general idea:

Image

I read a lot of technical stuff (I sucked at elektriciteitsleer) about the problems with dimming and switching on/off with X10.

My questions:
1: Can anyone tell me what type of lamps I can use? Can I dim, or only switch on/off?
I prefer 12V LED like this:
Image

2: Where should I put the x10 modules? I would like to make 3 groups: one for the ground-spots, and three individual lamps on the walls. There is a special electrical groundcable running from my "meterkast" to the barn in the back, so my thought was to put them there.

I hope you can help me with my newbie questions!
Cheers,

Eric
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Snelvuur
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Snelvuur »

See http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=182 for some more information regarding leds and the same thing you want on the tiles (except that its outside) and yes i would also suggest placing the x10 modules in the barn assuming you can keep them dry / moist free.

// Erik (binkey.nl)
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

Thanks for the link!

Based upon what I have read in that topic, I drew a wire-diagram.

Image

Any comments if this will work? The lamp modules are the Marmitek LM12W. http://www.marmitek.nl/nl/catalogus/pro ... product=29
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Snelvuur »

Which tools are you using for drawing everything? But this looks ok, as far as i can recall. Perhaps you can even put the x10 devices more to the building where the "grondspots dimbaar groep b" is. Would save you an extra cable, but this is totally what you feel handy.

Only the signs, you have Group A, but i dont see group A in the barn. Are all the corresponding text ok?

// Erik (binkey.nl)
eliket
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by snelvuur</i>
<br />Which tools are you using for drawing everything? But this looks ok, as far as i can recall. Perhaps you can even put the x10 devices more to the building where the "grondspots dimbaar groep b" is. Would save you an extra cable, but this is totally what you feel handy.

Only the signs, you have Group A, but i dont see group A in the barn. Are all the corresponding text ok?

// Erik (binkey.nl)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The Lights on the lower part of the picture (near my house) should have been called C, I'll fix it later.

I think it's better if I place the drivers and dimmers in the Barn, because then I have a central place and I dont have to mess with cables coming directly out of the house. I could, however place the dimmers and drivers in my "meterkast" but that means more wire thrue my "kruipruimte" and Garden. It would be better, because the X10 signals dont have to travel the whole distance then.

I drew the first one with Google sketchup and the second one in MS Visio 2007
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Bwired »

Be carefully with the marmitek modules specially if you want to dim Led lights. The powersupply needs to be able to handle the dimming
and the marmitek module should be able to handle it in a good way which I'm not sure of. Hopefully Lennart is reading this topic too and can shine a (Led) light on this.
Regards Pieter
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Lennart »

Hi Pieter, Eric and others,

I've been trying the Lumotech mains dimmable LED driver (nowadays sold by Klemko) with a Marmitek plug in lamp module. It seems to be generally working ok (but see below); at least no difference with the Xanura DAIX module.

What I'm worried about seeing the diagram, is the type of LED lights you (Eric) would like to use. You are talking about 12V LED lights, but note that the Lumotech driver is only suitable for powerleds working at a constant current of 350 or 700 mA. Voltage is then a function of the dim level/led type, according to the P = V * I that we all knew in our younger years ;-).

So please be careful with the type of LEDs you are going to use to make it all work. Make sure that these are powerleds (if the LED lights contain 6 to 12 or so individual leds in the fixture, you can be pretty sure these are not going to be powerleds).

Suitable LED lights might be Lumotech (or Klemko) Luxor fixtures, in combination with the IP67 outdoor in-ground housing. Nice feature is that the LED fixtures can be put at an angle in the housing to light certain objects in your garden.

See http://www.klemko.nl/user_files/LED%20artikel01.pdf for more information on these fixtures/housing.

Also read this topic for more info on LED dimming:

http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=626

Another point of care: I've been using small power LED fixtures (Lumotech Luxi and Luzern) connected to Lumotech dimmable LED drivers at two more places in our house, and it seems that the flickering effect I descibed in http://www.domoticaforum.eu/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=182 is somewhat worse in these two installations; it occurs at different dim levels (but can always be fixed by increasing/decreasing the dim level a little bit). Using Marmitek or Xanura is not making any difference here, so it seems to be the LED drivers itself in combination with the load (certain loads are not stable?) Or both Xanura and Marmitek are not the ideal choice for dimming the Lumotech driver? Or maybe the 350 mA channel of the driver is more stable than the 700 mA channel?

I'll neeed to experiment some more (by varying the number of LEDs, connecting them to the 350 mA channel of the driver, etc.) and also need to check if certain dim levels are always non-flickering, so I can have Homeseer adjust the dim level to exactly these levels, given bright/dim commands.

Another option would be to switch to DMX for controlling these LED fixtures, using either a DMX -> 0-10 V signal -> 0-10 V dimmable LED driver or a directly DMX controlled powerled driver, both being offered by [url]http://www.dmx4u.nl[/url[.

Sigh, so many things to find out and so little tim :-(.

I hope this helps...

Lennart
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Henk »

Did you do a signal check or some testing ? so be sure that the X10 modules located in the shed/barn can be controlled from your X10 controller. Because of the length of the electrical wiring the X10 signal is may be too weak ....

Henk
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

Hi all, thank you for the reply's!

Lennart, here's some more information about the LED's i came across on the net: (http://www.ledtrader.nl) They are Power LED's

Image

<font color="maroon">De armatuur is voorzien van de 1 watt Luxeon LED. De licht uitstralingshoek is 45 rotatie symmetrisch.De armatuur wordt geleverd inclusief een rubber aansluit snoer, 2x0.75 mm, lengte 3.0 meter. De waterdichtheid classificatie is IP 68.De behuizing is vervaardigd van stainless steel, 316, en voorzien van een 5 mm dik overloopbaar glas. De armatuur is bij uitstek geschikt voor traptrede en grondinbouw verlichting , zeker gezien de waterdichtheid classificatie en de stevige uitvoering.

Luxeon LED grond inbouw armatuur technische gegevens

zaagmaat : 39 mm x 58 mm
Wattage: 1 Watt (350 mA)
aansluitsnoer : 3,0 meter H05RNF 2x0,75mm
aansluitingen : in serie geschakeld tot maximaal 8 stuks op de driver DL20</font id="maroon">

Ledtrader states itself that these LED's can be driven by the DL20 Driver, and after asking them they told me by the DL35 to.

Here's some info on the DL35 from their website:

Image

<font color="maroon">DL35 driver/ voeding uitgangen 2 x 350mA Het dimbereik is van 10 tot 100% LET OP Alleen geschikt voor 1Watt Luxeon LED's
DL35 heeft 2x350mA uitgang en een ingang voor dimmer (Potmeter). Minimaal 1 en maximaal 8 LED's van 1,2W per kanaal(max 30V) aansluiten.De DL35 is alleen geschikt voor binnen gebruik.
voor elke verandering aan secundaire circuit(b.v. vervangen van LED's) de netspanning uitschakelen en vijf seconden wachten!
Aansluitspanning: 230 / 240VAC - 50 / 60 Hz
Uitgangsstroom: 350mA (max 30 Volt) per kanaal aansluiten</font id="maroon">

In my humble opinion this combo should work, but I'm not really sure..
eliket
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Henk</i>
<br />Did you do a signal check or some testing ? so be sure that the X10 modules located in the shed/barn can be controlled from your X10 controller. Because of the length of the electrical wiring the X10 signal is may be too weak ....

Henk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Henk,

Thanks for your reply!

I didn't do a signal check or any testing in the barn YET. But I'm pretty sure the signal is too weak. I'm having issues even within my house with lamp-modules being on different groups, so some kind of signal amplifier will be needed I think. The source of the wiring to my shed is my meterkast, so the amplifier should be placed there I assume.

Greetz,

Eric
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Lennart »

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the info. As far as I can see from the (Dutch) description, this led driver is *not* mains dimmable, but requires a "potmeter" (variable resistor) or 1 to 10 V on one of its inputs. So: using an X10 dimmer is not going to work for this driver... I'd say: stick to the Lumotech mains dimmable version. It wouldn't surprise me if the DL35/DL20 are relabeled Lumotech drivers (but a different type) anyway; they look surprisingly similar.

One other thing: did you check the color temperature for these ground spots? They seem pretty cool white. If that's your taste, no problem of course, but you might want to ask/know beforehand.

Lennart
eliket
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

Hi Lennart,

Because of the similar looks, I thought it was the same as the lumotech. I'll go for the Lumotech version then.

These LED's are also available in warm white. To be honest: I haven't seen the difference between WW and CW yet in real life. I'll have a look at the difference in de Praxis this afternoon.

Thanks again!
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Niknik »

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by eliket</i>
To be honest: I haven't seen the difference between WW and CW yet in real life. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">WW= Yellow-ish color, usually more pleasant for home use
CW= Blue-ish color, more suitable for special applications

(But of course, its a matter of personal preference :)
eliket
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by eliket »

Hi niknik,

I'ts abviously for outdoor use, so I'll have a look at it!
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Switching/Dimming garden lights with X10

Post by Bwired »

I had the CW led type in front of my garagedoor and it looked really ugly, its a very unnatural color. I changed it for the WW led color type, it's much better but stil not exactly my color.
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