Greenfield Project, what to choose?

[Friso]

Hi all,

I am searching the web for a couple of nights now, and still i cannot find a solid arguement to choose a system.
A little bit about myself, since this is my first post.
My name is Friso, 27 years old, running a little IT company in the netherlands. (yes, experience in programming, electrics and installation services)
Since July 2012 i bought a nice villa wich is build in industrial style, what does this mean for Domotica? Well... All electrical systems are not inside the walls but visible on the walls, this also includes all lightswitches and wall outlets.

In the near future i will start with removing all current electrical wires. and lightning. This house will be complete greenfield... Here is also where my issue starts....

I need to redo all wiring, wich makes it easy to do it right in the first place.... but how do i choose a system that fits greenfield? Current suppliers and manufacturers are mostly focused on renocation and current light switches...

The less i need to drill in that concrete house the better.... the less copper i need... the better.... the cheaper....... I need to make a business case VS a conventional system... to convince my girlfriend

Now how do i decide what system i need to purchase?

Current leading systems are:
KNX
Z-wave
Zigbee

First KNX: I still need to drill lightning switches and preferably push the data cable in it aswell... Next to that KNX is expensive but market-leading.
Second Zigbee: I like the idea and methods, but they are not compatible with most cases.
Last (and maybe best) Z-Wave: I love that Vera controller, but i cannot find ANYTHING about a greenfield situation, most hardware is focussed on renovation.

Wishlist:
Fully wirless lightning controll (offcourse i will have to get 230v to the bulbs... but the switches need to be wireless.)
Door and windows sensors (wireless preferred)
Power monitoring: Since it is greenfield and i also need to replace the Main power switches and fuses, i might want to monitor the powerconsumption on Fuse level. It would also be nice if i could disable wall outlets. Its also possible to have each wall outlet conneting directly with a fuse...

Is there anyone that is experienced with a greenfield project? whats a list that i need? How do i switch those lightbulbs (transmitter on the wall and receiver near the bulb??? or in the fusebox??)
Is there one single brand that covers all my needs? Or do i need to mix?

Thanks in Advance...

Friso

[Friso]

Is there noone that want to share some toughts about a complete project? i really could use some little help...

[olof]

Hi Friso,

Welcome to the forum. When I was starting out (2,5 years ago) the information in this forum provided me valuable insights. That and talking a lot to Enver ('Tane'). Mind you, it took me @#$ hours of researching all this stuff before I (as a non-techie) started to understand anything.

In any case, with the risk of sounding arrogant, may I suggest you spend some time reading the various posts in this forum?

In my own situation I went with Z-wave as base technology and Homeseer as the controller. Homeseer made it possible for me to add non-Zwave technology solutions as well where there was/is no Z-wave solution (yet). For example, my Alarm system is Visonic (hooked up into Homeseer via RfXCom), my sound system is Sonos. I control my garden gate through IPPower. In other words, an integrated solution for the end-user but my cabinet ('meterkast') is a cocktail of various hardware boxes.

At that time Vera could only do Z-wave technology. But it seems that Vera now also can handle some non-Zwave technology? Fibaro seems to be the 'best' Z-wave based controller at the moment.

I didn't go for KNX for several reasons; (1) re-wiring existing house is too expensive; (2) KNX parts tend to be more expensive and usually only available through professional resellers and (3) in my humble opinion it's old technology.... Then again, you don't have to change batteries every 1-3 years...

Some posts which might (or not) help you:

Home Automation controllers: a subjective overview:
domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=37& ... amp;t=7182

How to start, and with what?
domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=7& ... amp;t=7316

Questions I asked on my pre-set-up plan + what happened:
domoticaforum.eu/viewtopic.php?f=7& ... amp;t=5266

good luck!
Olof

[Friso]

Hi Olof,

First of all, thank you vry much for your response, its much appreciated.

I searched the board for 4 hours and found really a lot of information....
The merten choise is really understandable. I see that they make a wide range of products, including full wireless systems.
I will look into Mertens to see what i exactly need.

Specially the post that send was very helpful...

Did you do anything with switching wall outlets and powermetering? Here is mostly a lack of information...

Thanks!

Friso

[olof]

Hi Friso,

Did you do anything with switching wall outlets and powermetering? Here is mostly a lack of information...

Switching wall outlets
I'm not sure what you mean with 'switching wall outlets'? ('Stopcontacten' in Dutch?)

Normal light switches is part of my Merten collection. I noticed in your reply that you are also looking at Merten Z-wave as a possible solution. They are very beautiful and good quality. HOWEVER..... as you may already know the use of Merten Z-wave with Homeseer (or Fibaro or Vera) requires an intermediary step of using the Merten software first. Which works fine up to now, including most 3rd party Z-wave devices.
BUT.. Merten has not updated its z-wave software for some years now. I (and also you if you choose to go Merten Z-wave) run the risk that any future z-wave devices from manufacturer XYZ will not be accepted into the Merten software. And hence not function within Homeseer,Fibaro or Vera.
The safer option (but visually less beautiful..) is to go with other Z-wave brands for your light switches, such as Duwi for example. These can be integrated directly into Homeseer, Vera, Fibaro.

power metering
I only use Plugwise to measure the power usage of specific devices (washing machine, refrigerator, TV, server, etc..).

Cheers,
Olof

[Friso]

Hi Olof,

Thanks for that tip, i have some contacts at schneider electric (merten`s mothercompany). I will ask their specialists how Zwave will be supported in the future. I will update you aswell.

When having greenfield electricity (dutch translation, Casco woning zonder enige form van voorbereiding) i will be very flexible in what to do.
For instance i can bring every wall outlet (stopcontact) to the fusebox (meterkast) and connect them to their own metered group. This offcourse will cost more copper wiring, but brings information and possibility to cut off wall outlets individually. This wll also centralize power metering to the fusebox....

Monday i will have a Conference call with a KNX specialist working for the biggest installation company in the netherlands. He is going to explain how KNX beats all this.
A glimp: he told me that every room can have a controller where power, light, outlets, sensors and RF switches are connecting to, these controllers need a datacable to the meterkast. and centralized management.... This might be something because it saves massively on copper, but who knows what those controllers will cost....
t.b.h. i still prefer Z-wave....

Does Duwi got good availability in the netherlands? Who is the main distributor? is it Technische Unie?

Friso

[olof]

Hi Friso,

Sorry about the delayed response, to many non-internet priorities the last few weeks

Thanks for that tip, i have some contacts at schneider electric (merten`s mothercompany). I will ask their specialists how Zwave will be supported in the future. I will update you aswell.

That would be great, thanks. It would help me as well to decide how to proceed with the z-wave part of my home automation.

Does Duwi got good availability in the netherlands? Who is the main distributor? is it Technische Unie?

Those few times I have bought Duwi z-wave stuff was from Enver at http://www.hashop.nl. Enver has a nice selection of Duwi stuff, including the non-zwave parts.

Cheers,
Olof

[Friso]

Olof,

You send me a PM, i am not able to respond, please send me a new PM including your email address. I spoke three people in schneider.

Thanks

Friso