Does anyone have experience with EnOcean?
To me, it seems like a good alternative to Z-wave and Zigbee.
I hate Z-wave: it's too complicated and not standardized (e.g. MicasaVerde's Vera does not work well with European products). I'm hoping that EnOcean is better in this respect.
With Peha and a few other big companies behind it, it should be successful.
Only problem is that there are no drivers yet for Vera.
Someone wrote .NET interface, so it should not be too complicated to write something for Linux.
EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
EnOcean is one of the best HA technologies I've ever seen. The problem with the current release is that it doesn't support command acknowledges and statuses of the actuators. This is going to change with the new EnOcean Dolphin standard.
The other problem is the price (it's similar to KNX)! It's a German product made by Siemens and with German hardware manufacturers.
The third problem is the software. I'm searching for a nice, decent open-source software (hopefully web-based), but there's only Windows based, commercial proprietary softwares (except LinuxMCE, but it's ugly and geeky). If you know any, please don't be shy and share
The other problem is the price (it's similar to KNX)! It's a German product made by Siemens and with German hardware manufacturers.
The third problem is the software. I'm searching for a nice, decent open-source software (hopefully web-based), but there's only Windows based, commercial proprietary softwares (except LinuxMCE, but it's ugly and geeky). If you know any, please don't be shy and share
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
There is a forth problem with the EnOcean. It is not secured by encryption (well, it is actually not secured at all). So when you want to publish your house traffic to the general public then this is a very good solution. Also your switches and sensors (PIR sensors for example) can be easily spoofed.
This problem applies to the all of the wireless automation system I know except Zigbee.
Next possible problem you will face with the wireless system is the signal jamming. This is possible for the GSM signal so probably here too (and this does not require any expensive technology). So you will have the wireless security sensors but they can not send the signal. You can not even turn the lights on with your wireless switches.
This problem applies to the all of the wireless automation system I know except Zigbee.
Next possible problem you will face with the wireless system is the signal jamming. This is possible for the GSM signal so probably here too (and this does not require any expensive technology). So you will have the wireless security sensors but they can not send the signal. You can not even turn the lights on with your wireless switches.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Lots of problems for an awesome system
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Yep, maybe you're right
However it has some very strength sides like batteryless sensors. You don't have to put a wire for them, neither you have to change batteries every few months. They gather the needed energy for themselves. EnOcean Dolphin actually has encryption and routing, pretty similar to ZigBee (well, ZigBee's routing is more advanced, to be fair). EnOcean standard also defines pretty nice "Equipment Profiles" - something like ZigBee Pro, maybe even better. And one big strength is that it works on 868 MHz in Europe, not the overcrowded 2.4GHz that has problems also with solid walls penetration (something normal in Europe).
Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise EnOcean. It just has pretty nice ideas and works well in Europe (ZigBee fails on covering distances with concrete and solid brick walls without big external antennas). Also in general the end-user modules are cheaper than ZigBee's and there's plenty of them from different vendors (well, OK, the vendors are all German
).
I'm personally waiting for 6loWPAN modules, but the industry is very slow... I hope we could see a mass 6loWPAN invasion in 2 to 3 years. Ahhh, dreams...
However it has some very strength sides like batteryless sensors. You don't have to put a wire for them, neither you have to change batteries every few months. They gather the needed energy for themselves. EnOcean Dolphin actually has encryption and routing, pretty similar to ZigBee (well, ZigBee's routing is more advanced, to be fair). EnOcean standard also defines pretty nice "Equipment Profiles" - something like ZigBee Pro, maybe even better. And one big strength is that it works on 868 MHz in Europe, not the overcrowded 2.4GHz that has problems also with solid walls penetration (something normal in Europe).
Don't get me wrong, I don't advertise EnOcean. It just has pretty nice ideas and works well in Europe (ZigBee fails on covering distances with concrete and solid brick walls without big external antennas). Also in general the end-user modules are cheaper than ZigBee's and there's plenty of them from different vendors (well, OK, the vendors are all German
).I'm personally waiting for 6loWPAN modules, but the industry is very slow... I hope we could see a mass 6loWPAN invasion in 2 to 3 years. Ahhh, dreams...
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
My house is not made of wood, but I can't say I have experienced anything like this. I know based on the frequency it's true, but with 7 XBee's (all with chip antenna) the only transmission failures I get is when they're off for, let's say, more than 30 seconds (IIRC)mishoboss wrote: ZigBee fails on covering distances with concrete and solid brick walls without big external antennas
I have installed modules at places where I also had my doubts if the signal would be strong enough, actually I am still surprised about how well it works, day after day.What's your experience with Zigbee?
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
I too think that the EnOcean is really a fascinating technology. Exactly because the power independency through energy harvesting. When the new version will eliminate the security issues then it will become an ultimate wireless home automation technology.
I must say that wireless technology does have a very strong positive property. This is the low labor cost. Running the wires is quite labor consuming work.
I do not say that with wires there are no security risks but with wireless technology they are more apparent but people still quite often just do not notice them (or are ingnoring).
I must say that wireless technology does have a very strong positive property. This is the low labor cost. Running the wires is quite labor consuming work.
I do not say that with wires there are no security risks but with wireless technology they are more apparent but people still quite often just do not notice them (or are ingnoring).
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Hi, Digit,
my experience is just by testing some ZigBee modules (just the communication modules) with PCB antennas and some with U.FL. I wanted to make HA modules by myself and put them behind wall-switches and appliances. Also I read a lot of complains about ZigBee of other people living in Europe.
That's why I started looking at the EnOcean option. What I wanted was a cheap and decent solution and possibly not wireless. It turned out that Eltako produces EnOcean modules for fuse-box that are RS485 connected, not wireless. That was the perfect situation for my home, because I have prepared it for a hard-wired installation. This solution is a lot cheaper than the wireless option, also a lot cheaper than other hard-wired technologies like KNX, BTicino, AVE and others. The system for whole apartment with 4 shutters, 5 heating zones, 6-7 dimmer circuits, 6-7 relay (ON,OFF) light circuits and 3 ventilation zones will cost me about 1200-1300 Euro. And there's nothing wireless in there. Of course there's a little DIY work to make all this for that price, but that's the fun part
However for somebody that hasn't prepared his house for hard-wired solution (99.99% of the people), EnOcean is a very good wireless option. And when the Dolphin based modules are out on the market, this technology will be really appealing.
Of course there are security risks, but that is true for all wireless technologies. I wouldn't put anything wireless for security.
my experience is just by testing some ZigBee modules (just the communication modules) with PCB antennas and some with U.FL. I wanted to make HA modules by myself and put them behind wall-switches and appliances. Also I read a lot of complains about ZigBee of other people living in Europe.
That's why I started looking at the EnOcean option. What I wanted was a cheap and decent solution and possibly not wireless. It turned out that Eltako produces EnOcean modules for fuse-box that are RS485 connected, not wireless. That was the perfect situation for my home, because I have prepared it for a hard-wired installation. This solution is a lot cheaper than the wireless option, also a lot cheaper than other hard-wired technologies like KNX, BTicino, AVE and others. The system for whole apartment with 4 shutters, 5 heating zones, 6-7 dimmer circuits, 6-7 relay (ON,OFF) light circuits and 3 ventilation zones will cost me about 1200-1300 Euro. And there's nothing wireless in there. Of course there's a little DIY work to make all this for that price, but that's the fun part
However for somebody that hasn't prepared his house for hard-wired solution (99.99% of the people), EnOcean is a very good wireless option. And when the Dolphin based modules are out on the market, this technology will be really appealing.
Of course there are security risks, but that is true for all wireless technologies. I wouldn't put anything wireless for security.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
This is very intresting. Can you name the products you are using?mishoboss wrote:It turned out that Eltako produces EnOcean modules for fuse-box that are RS485 connected, not wireless.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Take a look at THIS. There are prices listed there too For my opinion the modules are relatively cheap. For example there is a 4 channel switching actuator (up to 4A 250V per channel) for a 52 Euro (13 Euro per channel). And this is not a China made low-quality piece of ****
I've ordered one FTS12EM (10 push buttons), FSB12-12 (2 channel shutter control), F4H12-12V (module for 4 heating zones), FSA12-12V (switching actuator with 4 outputs). They will be delivered to me this or next week. I'll make some tests with them before I order all the other modules I need for my whole home automation. However if we take out the fact that you can't retrieve the statuses of the actuators, it's pretty nice system for that price. In fact the statuses can be retrieved to the software by sniffing the RS485 bus for commands from push-buttons and sensors. This is how all EnOcean softwares work.
For my opinion the modules are relatively cheap. For example there is a 4 channel switching actuator (up to 4A 250V per channel) for a 52 Euro (13 Euro per channel). And this is not a China made low-quality piece of **** I've ordered one FTS12EM (10 push buttons), FSB12-12 (2 channel shutter control), F4H12-12V (module for 4 heating zones), FSA12-12V (switching actuator with 4 outputs). They will be delivered to me this or next week. I'll make some tests with them before I order all the other modules I need for my whole home automation. However if we take out the fact that you can't retrieve the statuses of the actuators, it's pretty nice system for that price. In fact the statuses can be retrieved to the software by sniffing the RS485 bus for commands from push-buttons and sensors. This is how all EnOcean softwares work.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
So they are using EnOcean protocol over the RS485 line and not some of their own proprietary protocols?
Just before you order all of your components please also check this out. http://www.eibhandel.de/MDT-AKK-161001- ... 230VAC-10A
This is a 16 channel switching actuator. Each channel is 10A. Its price is 281,00 euro but to compare you have to remove the VAT (Eltako prices are listed without VAT). This is about 236,13 euro what makes 14,76 per channel. Not quite 13 euro but prety close I think considering that this is a KNX switch actuator. Of course this is 16 channel device and devices with less channels would be more expensive per channel but Eltako does not make something similar so I find that this is fair enough.
Situation with the dimmers is not that good. http://www.eibhandel.de/MDT-AKD-040101- ... 30VAC-250W
This is 68,70 per channel (without VAT) but it is only 250W per channel (could be limiting when dimming bigger lamp groups). It does dim LEDs when they are dimmable. I'm not sure that the situation with the Eltaco is any different.
With KNX you have to also buy configuration software but you can get away only with 100 euro (without VAT again) when you do not have more than 20 devices (I belive you do not). I think that this is not too much when you can configure everything with the computer and not with the screwdriver. Of course when you do have more than 20 devices then the situation is not so nice anymore at the moment unfortunatelly.
Of course you need something to access the KNX bus but you need this also for Eltaco (do they have something for that?).
Devices listed here are made by MDT Automation http://mdtautomation.de/
Another KNX manufactor worth to look is Zennio http://zennio.com/en/
Configuration software is available from http://knx.org/
Just before you order all of your components please also check this out. http://www.eibhandel.de/MDT-AKK-161001- ... 230VAC-10A
This is a 16 channel switching actuator. Each channel is 10A. Its price is 281,00 euro but to compare you have to remove the VAT (Eltako prices are listed without VAT). This is about 236,13 euro what makes 14,76 per channel. Not quite 13 euro but prety close I think considering that this is a KNX switch actuator. Of course this is 16 channel device and devices with less channels would be more expensive per channel but Eltako does not make something similar so I find that this is fair enough.
Situation with the dimmers is not that good. http://www.eibhandel.de/MDT-AKD-040101- ... 30VAC-250W
This is 68,70 per channel (without VAT) but it is only 250W per channel (could be limiting when dimming bigger lamp groups). It does dim LEDs when they are dimmable. I'm not sure that the situation with the Eltaco is any different.
With KNX you have to also buy configuration software but you can get away only with 100 euro (without VAT again) when you do not have more than 20 devices (I belive you do not). I think that this is not too much when you can configure everything with the computer and not with the screwdriver. Of course when you do have more than 20 devices then the situation is not so nice anymore at the moment unfortunatelly.
Of course you need something to access the KNX bus but you need this also for Eltaco (do they have something for that?).
Devices listed here are made by MDT Automation http://mdtautomation.de/
Another KNX manufactor worth to look is Zennio http://zennio.com/en/
Configuration software is available from http://knx.org/
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
No, they don't have own proprietary protocol. They use EnOcean Equipment Profiles over serial or wireless. In fact Eltako produces many regular wireless EnOcean modules too. All the sensors for this system are wireless.
This KNX relay module for 16 channels is OK, however everything else is too overpriced for my opinion. To be honest I get the Eltako modules by my local distributor cheaper than the listed prices. Also KNX dimmers, shutter, heating and ventilation controls I've seen are way above the Eltako prices (several times more). The connection to the Eltako RS485 bus is done via regular USB->RS485 or RS232->RS485, which I already have, but if you go to buy it, the price would be no more than 20-25 Euro (or you can make your own for 3 Euro). Of course Eltako offers their own wireless module with RS232 to access the system for about 80 Euro. Also you don't have to pay for configuration software. The configuration is done by 3 knobs on every module and it's not poor... you have a lot of specific options for every kind of module.
This system with KNX would cost me at least 2800 Euro. With Eltako and EnOcean I get it for the half price.
This KNX relay module for 16 channels is OK, however everything else is too overpriced for my opinion. To be honest I get the Eltako modules by my local distributor cheaper than the listed prices. Also KNX dimmers, shutter, heating and ventilation controls I've seen are way above the Eltako prices (several times more). The connection to the Eltako RS485 bus is done via regular USB->RS485 or RS232->RS485, which I already have, but if you go to buy it, the price would be no more than 20-25 Euro (or you can make your own for 3 Euro
). Of course Eltako offers their own wireless module with RS232 to access the system for about 80 Euro. Also you don't have to pay for configuration software. The configuration is done by 3 knobs on every module and it's not poor... you have a lot of specific options for every kind of module.This system with KNX would cost me at least 2800 Euro. With Eltako and EnOcean I get it for the half price.
Last edited by mishoboss on Mon Feb 07, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Do you know that it is possible to connect some other manufactor similar device on the same wire? And are there other companies that do provide EnOcean over the RS485?mishoboss wrote:No, they don't have own proprietary protocol. They use EnOcean Equipment Profiles over serial or wireless. In fact Eltako produces many regular wireless EnOcean modules too. All the sensors for this system are wireless.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
In theory there wouldn't be a problem to do that. However I don't know another manufacturer that produces RS485 EnOcean modules, and I have searched.
Re: EnOcean, Peha EasyClick e.a.
Hi All,
I see that from the moment of latest post four years,
How there enOcean? have anybody installation expirience?
Had listed above problems been resolved in standard or not (I mean security and signal jamming)?
Thanks in advance for answers
I see that from the moment of latest post four years,
How there enOcean? have anybody installation expirience?
Had listed above problems been resolved in standard or not (I mean security and signal jamming)?
Thanks in advance for answers