ELV / Conrad FS20 central heating project (stage 1 complete

[KidE]

Hi All,

I'm in the process of modifying our central heating system to become a little more greener so to speak.
The Current setup is a Remeha Avanta C35 Boiler with a central thermostat in the livingroom.

Since i want to be able to control each room separately i found the ELV-FHZ-1000-2 a very interesting system.elv.de/ELV-FHZ-1000-2-Funk-Hauszentrale ... ch_/marke_

Together with the ELV FHT80B elv.de/ELV-FHT80B-1-Raum-Heizungsregelu ... ch_/marke_ it cam make a very neat complete system for central heating control.

BUT.....

I digged through the manuals but i could NOT find any description where the 2 wires should be connected that come from boiler which are normally connected to the (central) thermostat

Does anyone know where to connect these dropveters?

Iḿ not planning to leave my pump running 24/7 so... if that would be the outcome i need to keep looking to find another solution.

Ernst

[jrkalf]

Hi Ernst,

I saw your message just now, after typing two messages in private (reply to your dutch mail).
It's rather late and for the viewing spectacle I'll write up a post tomorrow. You'll indeed need more stuff to get it all done.
I'm new to this as well, but I've found some good information on what's needed already, and yes the setup you posted is only half of whats needed

Small hint for the spectators: another fs20 device that's also radio controlled, that does the pump control.
I'll do more information tomorrow.

Jelle

[KidE]

Hi Jelle,

After a quick telephone call with ELV everything became clear to me.
The FHZ-1000-2 can control the servo's in the valves but doesn't have the capability to directly adress the burner/pump on the boiler.
Here is were the FHT 8W comes in elv.de/ELV-Wauml;rmebedarfsrelais-FHT-8 ... ch_/marke_
It uses a simple relais for switching the burner/pump on and offf when there is a demand for heat. (is this correct english?)
Up to 25 room units FHT80B can be connected to one single FHT 8W to send / recieve bidirectional information.

I've ordered the following set which i hope to recieve within a few days:

1 x 68-764-85 Wärmebedarfsrelais FHT 8W, Komplettbausatz je 59,95 EUR* = 59,95 EUR* lieferbar, Zustelltermin siehe Hinweis**
3 x 68-915-07 ELV FHT80B 1-Raum-Heizungsregelung (1x FHT80B-3 + 1x FHT8V-2) je 59,95 EUR* = 179,85 EUR* lieferbar, Zustelltermin siehe Hinweis**
2 x 68-576-44 ELV FHT 8V Funk-Stellantrieb mit Adapterset je 34,95 EUR* = 69,90 EUR* lieferbar, Zustelltermin siehe Hinweis**

I choose the ELV FHT80B instead of the ELV FHT8 because at a later point in time i want to be able to adress all units via the cenrtral HA controller.

[jrkalf]

Hi Ernst,

Thanks for the update, I was going to bring about the same. Except for the part where I haven't ordered yet, and you already did.

About the FHZ1000:
I understand why you didn't go for the fhz1000, a phonecall with ELV could have helped me too
I at first thought that the fhz1000 was a central unit for keeping track of multiple fht80b's... I'm lost at some points. ELV is anything but clear in their directions on their site. But taking notes from your phonecall: the fhz1000 is like the fht80b, but able to do less. It's not an "oversight" device that controls multiple fht80b units.

I've personally not chosen to include a fhz1000 in my setup as I've already gotten a fhz1000pc unit to connect my computer. I'll be monitoring my fht80b units using FHEM as base software until DomotiGa supports FS20. Which I hope they do eventually.
If you're still thinking about this choice, reconsider if you need to buy a fhz1000pc or a fhz1300pc or a CUL device. In hindsight I'd have gone for a CUL device. Why you might ask: It's able to directly get information from a a device I describe below, the fht8tf-2. The fhz1000 is unable according to some website postings I've read.

About the fht80b and fht8w:
What I gather from your message is that it's a need based switch. The fht8w is the "slave" device that turns the heat on or off when receiving the command from the fht80b. It does not monitor the temperature itself and turn on the heat when it's needed. The device gets its controlling commands from the fht80b.

with your order BTW: Wärmebedarfsrelais FHT 8W, Komplettbausatz <-- keep in mind you need to solder that unit together. It's not a fully build unit, it's all bits and pieces. (Yes, I've made that mistake on other parts too. Although I don't mind soldering them together )

What I'm missing in your order (excuse me for being this direct) is the choice for fht8tf-2 units. These are window/door sensors that notify the fht80b-2 if a door or window is opened. At that point the fht80b will instruct the fht8v (radiator unit) to shut off the heat supply to the radiator. Hence not turning up the heat when windows are opened. Saving a lot of energy.


Jelle

p.s. a small note for other interested people. I've noticed that there are quite a few UK people using FS20 and sharing their information on an english forum called http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/

[KidE]

The reason why i NOT choose for a FHZ-1000 is because this unit ha sthe same function is the room units + that you can also control lights with it.
If you have the 1000-pc of 1300 you have exactly the same functions so the FHZ-1000 is to much i think.

But the following will answer your question / doupts i hope.

Se here a part of the manual:



It can be used in this way:



Or in this way:




The FHZ-1000 is'nt showed but should be working if i read the dutch manual which i downloaded from the Conrad website.

[jrkalf]

Sorry, I've updated my post in the time you were writing yours. *see my changes*.

Yes, the FHZ1000 is obsolete because the fht80b does more.
The FHZ100pc however is a usb device that's controlled by a computer (I love their duplicate naming of their devices). What I've read from the FHEM mailinglist and website is that it's able to receive information from the fht80b units and it's able to send control commands to the fht80b as well.

[KidE]

What I'm missing in your order (excuse me for being this direct) is the choice for fht8tf-2 units. These are window/door sensors that notify the fht80b-2 if a door or window is opened. At that point the fht80b will instruct the fht8v (radiator unit) to shut off the heat supply to the radiator. Hence not turning up the heat when windows are opened. Saving a lot of energy.

Totally true but my 1st goal is to get central heating up&running and maybe at a later point i'll add the window units to interface with the room units and central alrm system.

My zakgeld is running out and the wife al;so has a few demands so.......... meybe later

[jrkalf]

I totally get that feeling Ernst. I'll be having the same issue if I'm investing in this as well. But then again, if the calculations hold up and it does reduce the energy consumption (being a conservative calculator here), the system should pay for itself in about 5 years of time. Normally a device like that should last about 10 years?

I've had a Private mail conversation with Fredd500 from the automatedhome.co.uk forums. He's had this system up and running for quite a while now and he's quite happy with how it runs. He's also using a fhz1000pc as additional unit for graphs and the "nerdfactor". Only thing I've not been able to get out of him is if he was able to receive the fht80tf-2 sensory data as well. The sensory data is nice additional information to have your system running more economical. (receiving notifications when room doors aren't closed. To prevent heating unwanted area's of the house.)

before I'm ordering the system at my place I'll be checking out an additional thing for my house: I don't have a boiler, I'm on city-heating (stadsverwarming). I need to check wether or not I need a fht8w, or how I have to make it work for me.

[KidE]

So all parts came in on Thursday and today i had some time so start setting things up.

At 1st i started with the 2 offices which are quite simpel, Just a central FHT80B unit with a single radiator servo valve. After following the manual step by step the damm thing wasnt working I suspected something like this because the manual is pretty darn BAD. Even the German one (which my wife helped me to figure out since its her native language) was.... lets say... well.... it has to be improved because for somebody without technical knowledge not doable.
There is a strange way in the ordering of executing the different tasks:

Servo

1) Put batteries in the valve and turn it on.
2) Let the servo go to max and back to min (automatically done)
3) Mount the servo (with adapter if necessary) to the existing valve
4) Push little grey button on valve to let it set the max setting.

Servo=done

FHT80B room unit

1) enter date /time/year gender blablabla
2) Set house code (security code 1) push PROG until Sond appears, scroll to "CodE"
3) Set floor/room code (security code 2)
4) Set the servo in sync mode by pushing the Grey button more that 3 sec until it beeps
5) Sync room unit push PROG until Sond appears, scroll to "CodE" (puch PROG 2 times until code sync)
6) Servo beeps if code recieved.

Voila your done....

After programming all the settings i needed for our offices i could here the servos turning and both rooms were operational within 2 hours.

The next step was to start soldering the FHT8W together which i must say is a pretty easy way to save about 30 euro. The package comes with the SMD PCB already done so you only have to solder a coil, relais and some diodes and your done.
30 euro's saved in 15 min is a well done job

The menu structure of the device and the manual are pretty good (compared to the others) and straight forward. Just learn the codes of the room units to the FHT8W and described above and your done.


In the meanwhile i got a mail from ELV where i got an awnser to the question i asked in the 1st message. They say:

Code: Select all

Sehr geehrter Herr Cozijnsen

Leider ist die FHZ 1000 nicht in der Lage Ihren Boiler anzusprechen. Die FHZ kann lediglich FHT 80b Raumregler steuern die dann wiederum Stellantriebe an der Heizung steuern.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Leer

ELV Elektronik AG
Ihre Technische Kundenbetreuung
i.A. Torsten Boekhoff
Tel.: 0491-6008-245 ( Technische Hotline)
E-Mail: technik@elv.de

Translated: "Sorry man no can do. Its impossible to hook this system up to your central heating boiler. You can only let the FHZ1000 communicate with the FHT80B room units"
Eh...... OK sure thanks Torsten Boekhoff but your colleagues i spoke on the phone think something different. I do to now.


In the manual of the FHT8W there is a passage which speaks of "Grenzwert". After analyzing this it means that they talk about the amount of % the servo opens the valve. This is a bit vague because i thought the valve opens 100% to get heat and closes when the temperature rises. Apparently not!
The manual states that if you "fine tune" these values the utilization of the whole system goes up and saves you the max amount of money used for central heating.
This made me decide to let the system run parallel with the current thermostat so i have see how it behaves and makes fine tuning a bit more easy.

The thing that most struck me by surprise is that a working room temperature of 17 degrees Celsius is very comfortable. This keeps me from opening a window from time to time to let some cold air in to cool down from working to hard

More to come....

[jrkalf]

Almost have the boss @ home to the point where I'm starting this as well.
As I've recently moved (may 2010) I've still got a A5 size paper full of things to do, which she wants me to complete first..
Amongst them being some radiators being shifted so I'm working the list to my favor and making that a "somewhat of a priority"

Thanks for the info Ernst.
As I've read some forums a bit more, also the FOK and Tweakers forums. I mostlikely don't need a FHT8w, the cityheating is a closed system driven by the radiator valves. Demand and supply should be done by those... so I'm going to verify a few things, because it looks like the previous owners seem to have installed a sort of honeywell electronic valve because they installed a Chronoterm IV. (me don't like that). So I'm still puzzling out the basics of my city heating pipes.

[KidE]

Ohh that list of things to do. Yes i know it hurts but but man, don't argue with the wife! We think we are lord and master..... NOT

Well iḿ my student time i was living in Utrecht and we also had "district heating" and there were definitely some electronic components involved.

1) Manual Valves IN + OUT to control cutoff in summer e.g.
2) Thermostat on the IN pipes to see of intake water is 80 degrees +
3) Shortcut between inlet and outlet (to make sure pump cant build pressure if left on and valves are closed)
3) Water flow meter
4) Electronic valve + pump (3 stage purple/pink)+ regulator/switch box

District heating will have a certain water pressure but certainly not enough to pump all the needed heat through your house.
How it worked (or better say not worked because the damm flow valve always always broke) was that when you open the radiator actuator an natural circulation starts which lets the flow meter know that heat is needed and the pump kicks in.
These pumps is where you can save money. I remember that that pump we had was a 65Watt which when constantly running can drain your wallet.

This was in a OLD house so i dot know if more modern systems act differently.

Could you maybe post a picture of how the system is connected?

[jrkalf]

Ohh that list of things to do. Yes i know it hurts but but man, don't argue with the wife! We think we are lord and master..... NOT

hehehe, no arguments there

1) Manual Valves IN + OUT to control cutoff in summer e.g.
2) Thermostat on the IN pipes to see of intake water is 80 degrees +
3) Shortcut between inlet and outlet (to make sure pump cant build pressure if left on and valves are closed)
3) Water flow meter
4) Electronic valve + pump (3 stage purple/pink)+ regulator/switch box

District heating will have a certain water pressure but certainly not enough to pump all the needed heat through your house.
How it worked (or better say not worked because the damm flow valve always always broke) was that when you open the radiator actuator an natural circulation starts which lets the flow meter know that heat is needed and the pump kicks in.
These pumps is where you can save money. I remember that that pump we had was a 65Watt which when constantly running can drain your wallet.

This was in a OLD house so i dot know if more modern systems act differently.

Could you maybe post a picture of how the system is connected?

New district heating is quite similar, but it also involve me being unable to cut off the bulk of the IN pipes (manual valves) as our generic water supply (shower, kitchen water) is also coming from district heating. So I'd need to get a full inventory done on that. There are manual valves at the entrance of the house, but I'd have to check the system... Valid point for creating a picture, need to see where there's extra locations to save on energy consumption

[richard naninck]

I have been using the FS20 system for CV for the last two years with succes. It took me some time to figure it all out but it works. I also bought the FHZ1000 but don't use it anymore because FHT80b's can only pair with one device. Eihter the FHZ1000 or the FHZ1x00PC. I needed the PC controller so the FHZ1000 got replaced by another FHT80B. I got 10 FHT's and 13 servo valves to control all rooms and most radiators.
A Remeha Avanta controls four rooms and a Remeha Quinta controls the other 6 rooms. Both Remeha's use the Celcia 20 for control. The Avanta is room controlled whereas the Quinta is using an outside temp sensor for weather dependent control. The Celcia 20 has somekind of on/off switch like a so called "over werk" switch. If you short this switch the celcia goes from (off) eco setpoint (15C in my case) to (on) Digi Temp S setpoint (in my case 22C). The PC gets all the info from the FHT's and servo's. About 3 to 4 times per hour an FHT sends update messages containing the ist and soll temperatures, battery status, etc. The servo's update ones per two minutes their open state in percentage. If a temperature is changed manually using the one of the FHT's or using the HA PC, the messages are transmitted within 3 minutes from the change. With all of this info the HA PC can determine if either the Avanta, Quinta or both should be on. If the soll temp is lower than the ist temp, the HA PC switches the applicable Celcia 20 thus creating the bridge between CV control and the FHT's while maintaining all the modulating features of the celcia. If the HA PC is not running for some remote reason, the celcia can be switched manually thus maintaining a stand alone status and WAF!
In my case the celcia sets a setpoint of 22C and this temp is always higher than the soll temp set in the FHT. So my Avanta or Quinta produces heat while the FHT opens and closes the servos. The CV also modulates and reduces power when the retour temp reaches the aanvoer temp in case temperatures are reached or all FHT's close the servo's.

System works without error!


Nice features are:

- Remote control via internet / iPhone
- Complete status reports of all HVAC data in all rooms
- Turn off CV when arming alarm while maintaining a low temp of 15C in the celcia's eco setting
- Control CV per room makes the heating loop small thus quick and cheaper in gas usage.
- No more trouble with rooms getting cold because the main room is getting hot by for example a fireplace
- Cheap hardware

I have some good info on protocol and consider myself a power user because of the two Remeha's controlling 10 different rooms.
All of this is done using HouseBot but if anybody is interested, just let me know.

[KidE]

OK after some tweaking and tuning the system is now fully operational and everything is working smooth.
I changes the offset (grenzwert in german) on the FHT8W to 10% for all room units and now there is enough debit when the boiler heats up.
All in all a pretty simpel but effective installation.
Lets see what it does the next few weeks and see i i can motivate the wife to automate some more things.